Popples (I keep adding pics...then, I started ranting)

[Zass]

Is it OK to post cute kits just for fun?

My mutt does are 1/4 FG 1/4 NZW and !/2 lilac rabbit. Visual opals(dilute agouti) with recessive chocolate and self genes (and some have rew) and that's IT. Perfect for testing my bucks for colors

In this case I was testing a friends new SF buck for steel, rew, dilute, and chocolate. We were expecting self black and agouti, with some hope for other colors. (his type isn't as nice as my bucks, but he might still work for my foxy-coated opal and lynx rabbit project)

So we have: 1/8 FG 1/8 NZW 1/4 Lilac 1/2 SF kits with chances of carrying dilute and chocolate, and maybe rew from the doe.

Not even sure HOW many popples are in this nest, but it was cold out, so I just poked around for
dead kits, took a quick pic(well, three), and put the nest back.

Found one dead outside the nest box. Gah, It wasn't there yesterday.

The mutt does can nurse this many(often with quite plump kits), and likely all will survive except maybe that runt on the bottom of the middle pic. I won't know for sure that they are free of steel until their color comes in better.

 

[3mina]

Pics are pretty much required here

 

[Mickey328]

Awesome litter! That's a "pile of popples"

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Too cute!!!!!

 

[Marinea]

Congrats! Purty popples you have there.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Is it OK to post cute kits just for fun?

Pics are pretty much required here

:yeahthat:

I'm surprised it isn't in the terms of use that you need to own a camera and be willing to use it in order to join.

Nice nestful of popples you have there!

:congratulations:

 

[Ramjet]

:congratulations:


That's a whole lotta buns .... popped outa the oven.

I'm surprised it isn't in the terms of use that you need to own a camera and be willing to use it in order to join.

Yeah , I like that , you should add it to the TOS.

 

[LoraAnnIN]

:congratulations:

I have been on popple watch since Saturday, four days off and nothing! Now watch I go back work today to an 11 hour day, I will come home to popples....... I hope!

They are very cute!

 

[Zass]

AH, looks like she originally had 12. This is a standard size litter for one of these mix breed girls.
THIS is why I have higher expectations from my SF. I expect them to birth and mother just as good as any mix breed. The smallest litter ever born here was 6 from a SF doe. That's not large enough of a litter for a MEAT rabbit. (show lines might prefer it though)
two runts in there, and I lost one who was pulled out of the nestbox and dead when I found it.

Everyone's fed except one of those runts(there are two).

REALLY GOOD mothering In these lines. They usually feed the undersized kits. Huh, actually, her sisters last litter had one, and now I can't tell which one it was.

Since I'll likely wean 9 or 10 kits from this litter, I'm not going to interfere with the too small ones.

 

[Peach]

Absolutely not! JK

Congrats on the popples! EEk! I just finished class and now I just want to hurry home to hold a couple of fat kits

 

[AmysMacdog]

Congrats on all those beautiful lil popples! Nice looking litter!

Peach is headed home to get a kit fix! I just got done with my evening kit fix.

 

[Zass]

Yep, lost the skinny runt, the other seems fine.

To keep people updated, the sire was a black SF and the doe was a visual opal. White belly, white inside of ears. Opal.

So...here's the question, are they steels?

If they are, that makes 2 totally unrelated SF bucks(from different states) that are carrying steel.

My SF buck has a pedigree, and I can reasonably guess where the steel came from, and why he seems to have 2 copies of that gene as well.

My friend's buck has no pedigree, and all we know about him is that he's from Ohio. OK, so with no ped, I can't know for sure that the second buck isn't related. But they came from rather far apart geographically. He doesn't carry the blue or the rew that mine carries.

If they are steels, I'm going to get all sorts of paranoid about SF lines having it. I need an agouti buck to test my doe one too. If she's clean of it, I'm going to crossbreed her son back to her, and test each and every kit until I get some without steel.

My problem with it? It's NOT supposed to be there.
The other problem I had with it:
I crossed a visually black mutt rabbit with my SF buck and made visibly steel kits.

One of those rabbits is obviously an agouti, masked by two copies of the steel gene.
The black rabbit shows no trace of steel anywhere on here, neither does my fox buck, but it's harder to tell on him, because of all the silvering.
I'm familiar with dark steels, she isn't one.

So...the question is...which one is the agouti? The pedigreed SF or the mutt? The SF has been in front of show judges 3 times now. He's not a winner by any means, but he is visibly the right color.

For my next test breeding, I'll cross my SF buck with my purebred lilac rabbit, she's nice and clean, a lovely pure self.
If a visibly steel kit is produced, I'll be replacing all my SF, except one doe, who's innocent until proven guilty

If I get none, I can reasonably assume the black mutt was the hidden agouti rabbit.

Maybe this needs moved to the genetics section? :lol:

 

[Northwinds Rabbitry]

WOW!!! nice pics and cute cute babies.
I love the "update" pics as they grow

 

[Zass]

Yep steels. EVERY LAST ONE.

Some are dark and some are more strongly marked, but none have white bellies or white ears. All had pink agouti marks at birth.

Fat steels though, all but the runt, who's been fed, but isn't thriving.

The Doe is just a wonderful creature, to feed these little experiments of mine so darned well

Here's Momma, as you can see...no possibility of steel from her.

 

[Dood]

For my next test breeding, I'll cross my SF buck with my purebred lilac rabbit, she's nice and clean, a lovely pure self.

I hope you only get self and no agouti - fingers crossed

Do you know if your Opal doe carries self?

They are still pretty young and most look black to me, although I cannot get a good look at the back of all their necks. I have never had so many dark steels, usually the litters range from almost chestnuts to coal black, hopefully they are just smutty or the silver gene is messing them up somehow.

If your main goal is pelts then there really is no other fur like the SF. It is the only breed with free standing fur that doesn't roll or fly back.

Why not just keep them and sell the offspring as mutts even though they have papers.

 

[Zass]

For my next test breeding, I'll cross my SF buck with my purebred lilac rabbit, she's nice and clean, a lovely pure self.

I hope you only get self and no agouti - fingers crossed

Do you know if your Opal doe carries self?

They are still pretty young and most look black to me, although I cannot get a good look at the back of all their necks. I have never had so many dark steels, usually the litters range from almost chestnuts to coal black, hopefully they are just smutty or the silver gene is messing them up somehow.

If your main goal is pelts then there really is no other fur like the SF. It is the only breed with free standing fur that doesn't roll or fly back.

Why not just keep them and sell the offspring as mutts even though they have papers.

(frustrated rant warning)
Yes, the opal has self, but the kits all had pretty clear agouti marks at birth. You can see in the first pics I posted. It all grew in black later. Steels have done this to me before. I go YAY agoutis!...No wait...blacks? no...STEELS!! In theory some should definitely be selfs though.

EH, these kits aren't from my SF buck, but my SF buck is a steel carrier too. I was testing this one because he came from a different state and I wanted to know if it was just my rabbit, or others.
I don't even want to LOOK at another SF for sale unless I know the breeder had checked for steel. WHY SHOULD I PAY $50 for rabbits that can only be sold as mutts because I checked for something that others aren't bothering to? Those are pretty damned expensive fluffy mutts!
And another thing, had I not checked would my rabbits have then been worth more? I'm an honest person, and have no need to hide what's in their bloodlines, I'd much rather just produce something good to begin with.

What's the point of spending my time and energy on rabbits that will never be considered worth producing? I'm only gonna live once, I can't get back years put into raising junk animals, I can surely hold out for better stock.

*pant pant*

It's not really the fact that MY rabbit is a super steel that's bothered me (confirmed by many test breedings), It's the fact that ANY RABBIT I MIGHT PURCHASE AT TOP DOLLAR could have it too.
Both of my animals pedigrees are loaded with Collins rabbits. I haven't been able to check the doe because I don't have an agouti buck, and I don't have room in my rabbitry for one right now. But you know what? I don't like that doe anyway. She can only nurse 6 kits.

I will wait until I find steel-free stock from a reputable breeder who tests for it specifically. It's not something you can eliminate easily from breeds that only come in self colors. I make my money selling pelts, and I need to be able to produce those pelts in a variety of colors.

 

[Dood]

Wait a minute ... The SOP for SF says nothing about having a genotype of - aa BB CC DD EE sisi

Steel carrying SF are perfectly showable and breedable to produce more SF

I would be much more T.O. that they also carry REW, chocolate and dilute than steel and since SF only come in self colours the gene's only effect is to possibly to increase their size.

I get that you personally don't like it but there is absolutely no reason not to sell them a lovely SF or breed more $50 SF (as long as they are not agouti super steels of course )

 

[Zass]

Wait a minute ... The SOP for SF says nothing about having a genotype of - aa BB CC DD EE sisi

Steel carrying SF are perfectly showable and breedable to produce more SF

I would be much more T.O. that they also carry REW, chocolate and dilute than steel and since SF only come in self colours the gene's only effect is to possibly to increase their size.

I get that you personally don't like it but there is absolutely no reason not to sell them a lovely SF or breed more $50 SF (as long as they are not agouti super steels of course )

Dilute, rew and chocolate are clear on the pedigrees and never bothered me. I wanted the chocolate and dilute, and I had a plan to get rid of the rew.
Any of those can be cleaned out in one generation with ease, and with SF as test rabbits, so no mutts have to be produced.
Those are all still normal colors for SF that wouldn't surprise anyone. Just standard recessive genes that take two copies to manifest.
Steel and especially super steel is something I can't do anything about if every rabbit I test comes up with it, and it costs that much money just to acquire the rabbit to test it to begin with. *frustrated*

Steel wasn't on any pedigree. (of course not! It's impossible on a self!)
Getting rid of steel when all you can find is super steels? That's a nightmare.
I realize I've only found it on two animals. I understand that one litter isn't confirmation. But you see...I have no market for these 1/2 fox steel pelts. So every steel test litter produced is...costing me, since I have limited space and litters. Chocolate and dilute, and even lilac are highly desirable to me, and some other breeders.

Assuming I can even find SF who look good, grow well, have the rudiments of SOP, and aren't terrible mothers and aren't batshit crazy, and can successfully nurse meat rabbit sized litters, just to test for it, that is.

What scares me most are those kits that I thought were agoutis, but look like blacks now. It's a modification on the steel gene that produces them, and see how many? What if a modified steel gene like that worked it's way around?

It's been a long drawn out battle just to find and produce what I have so far.
I like my "purebred" kits, and I will show them in open shows this summer, I can still get black pelts if I breed them together. I'm scrapping their pedigrees though and not bothering BREEDING a rabbit I'll call a SF until someone can get me a black (blue, chocolate, or lilac) rabbit with no genetic nightmares hidden under it's coat.

I was lucky that I was able to test my friend's buck without having to buy one of his kits. She has every intention of breeding him to one of my does and selling the babies. I don't mind that, but I don't really want any part of it.

I sold my adults to someone looking to sell rabbit meat. They were told about all the colors.

on another note, Dood, I really value your advice about this and thank you for replying.
Even just being aware of a difference in opinion is valuable! I'm mostly just venting my frustration about the whole business.

 

[skysthelimit]

Ok, slow down.

None of those kits in the first picture are agouti marked. The have little pinkish ears, pinkish mouths and a little pinkish belly, as all colors sometimes do in those areas till the fur comes in. True agoutis look like this. coat-colors-t14069.html?hilit=castor A bit blurry, but look how white that ear is.<br /><br />__________ Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:55 am __________<br /><br />Here's another one, see how white those ears are? Not just some pink on the edge.

popples-t7451.html?hilit=castor

My black Rex look like your's too, sometimes a little pinkish, but never as pink as the agoutis. And I would know if I had steel in this Rex herd, as the Agoutis are in the same litter as the selfs, I cross my agoutis all the time with selfs, I would notice.

 

[Zass]

Well, no they don't have full or proper agouti marks, because they aren't agoutis (Much to my dismay) But I'm pretty sure they aren't blacks either.
Steel kits look in between blacks and agoutis at birth, and they tend to throw me off.

But just from personal experience from every time I've outcrossed a SF, I tend to get an abnormal amount of these very dark steels. Any amount of steel is still a bad sign to me. I don't believe rex are contaminated with it. But see, you can breed black to agouti to check, SF people normally don't.
From previous litters, these kits are both steel, one looks almost like an agouti, so I showed him grown up later. none have any SF in them.

These are the same two kits pictured above. All three rabbits eventually showed steel ticking in their fur, but on the " self black" looking kit it was just a bit and very light. You can see it beginning to come in on the broken steel there. It later became more obvious. I do have more pics.

sky, didn't you have a pair of modified chinchilla rabbits someone sold as SF? They looked all black but the blue eyes were the give away?

SOP is great if you breed rabbits for selling or showing. But...say your rabbits are working rabbits that you need to preform a certain way to remain profitable.
Most people get their profit from selling show quality rabbits, and that's great.
I just didn't think SF rabbits would all be loaded with steel genes, and it's caught me off guard.

I'll pay double or triple for good rabbits that have been test bred clean of steel though. I need FLUFFY COATS and easy to work with personalities, and no real big flaws (like pinched hips, neurosis, small litters, or poor mothering) colors are fine, and even preferred, heck even something like tort wouldn't bother me as much as steel.