Orange or harlequin?

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Hello! This is my first time posting!
I have a question about my holland lop buck. When I first got him I thought he was orange however I bred him with a chestnut doe and she produced oranges and harlequins. How is that possible? I only recently started researching rabbit genetics. If he was orange he would have ee and in order for my doe to have orange kits she would have Ee. Then where would the harlequin come from? I then thought that he was just a lightly marked harlequin. Would that be the case? Any information would be extremely helpful! Thank you! I included a picture of the buck and the litter.

 

[Naelin]

Hello and welcome!

Your buck seems to me like a tort (similar genetically to an orange, but self-based instead of agouti). Maybe he's a lightly marked harlequin but that doesn't seem like the case to me. He's definitely not an orange (for orange you would see a much "cleaner" colour, no dark snout and he would have white around the eyes, on the belly and under the tail). You can see some examples of orange here.

Harles seem entirely possible with your combination, especially considering that you seem to have some steel thrown in the mix. I think your chestnut doe is probably not chestnut, but a steel with a recessive harlequin gene. Could you add a picture of her?

That said, in your picture you seem to have two chestnut/torts (not sure), two harlequins (one vienna-marked), a gold-tipped steel (the black one with black inside the ears) and I'm not sure a baby #5.

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Hello and welcome!

Your buck seems to me like a tort (similar genetically to an orange, but self-based instead of agouti). Maybe he's a lightly marked harlequin but that doesn't seem like the case to me. He's definitely not an orange (for orange you would see a much "cleaner" colour, no dark snout and he would have white around the eyes, on the belly and under the tail). You can see some examples of orange here.

Harles seem entirely possible with your combination, especially considering that you seem to have some steel thrown in the mix. I think your chestnut doe is probably not chestnut, but a steel with a recessive harlequin gene. Could you add a picture of her?

That said, in your picture you seem to have two chestnut/torts (not sure), two harlequins (one vienna-marked), a gold-tipped steel (the black one with black inside the ears) and I'm not sure a baby #5.

The first picture is the doe the others are the litter when they’re older and an individual picture of the chestnut/maybe steel.

I did consider tort. If he was a tort though he would still have double ee on the E locus and in order to produce tort babies and the doe would be Ee on the E locus. I considered her being harlequinized chestnut but then remembered she needed e to produce tort/orange kits so the only possibility would be him carrying the harlequin gene e(j). I only just got into genetics so I might be wrong though!

Also if it’s helpful the does parents are: black otter and opal vm.

Buck’s parents are opal vm and WE chocolate.
Do you think that the Buck is chocolate base?

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Here is more pictures of the doe.

 

[Naelin]

I've compared some pictures of lop selves vs steels and now I'm not so sure the black one is steel, I think its just a black self. None of the parents are steels so that would not be possible as steel cannot be hidden.

I also realised the "tort" babies were too light and uniform, and looking at this they look much more like orange (I'm very much not versed in lops, their colours look very different than those of my rabbits)

I tried my hand at the genes to see if things lined up. I did not understand what you meant by "WE chocolate" for the buck's parent and Google was not helpful so I just put down what I could take from "chocolate"


Buck's parent 1 <A_B_C_ddE_Vv>
Buck's parent 2 <__bb__D___>

Doe's parent 1 <A_B_C_ddE_Vv>
Doe's parent 2 <at_B_C_D_E_>

Dad seems to be <aaBbC_Ddee>
Mum seems to be <A_B_C_DdE_>

Orange kits <AaB_C_D_ee>
Harle kits <_aB_C_D_ejeVv>
Black kit <aaB_C_D_E_>
Agouti kit <Aa__C_D_E_Vv> (Not sure if black or brown based, probably black)

That doesn't line up, you can't have both orange and harles with a full-extension parent.
I think the buck may be a very faintly marked harlequin (I have JUST produced two like that, and as you can read here his dad had also produced a kit that looked like an orange but had a singular line running through the back leg) but that said I am not an expert.

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

I've compared some pictures of lop selves vs steels and now I'm not so sure the black one is steel, I think its just a black self. None of the parents are steels so that would not be possible as steel cannot be hidden.

I also realised the "tort" babies were too light and uniform, and looking at this they look much more like orange (I'm very much not versed in lops, their colours look very different than those of my rabbits)

I tried my hand at the genes to see if things lined up. I did not understand what you meant by "WE chocolate" for the buck's parent and Google was not helpful so I just put down what I could take from "chocolate"


Buck's parent 1 <A_B_C_ddE_Vv>
Buck's parent 2 <__bb__D___>

Doe's parent 1 <A_B_C_ddE_Vv>
Doe's parent 2 <at_B_C_D_E_>

Dad seems to be <aaBbC_Ddee>
Mum seems to be <A_B_C_DdE_>

Orange kits <AaB_C_D_ee>
Harle kits <_aB_C_D_ejeVv>
Black kit <aaB_C_D_E_>
Agouti kit <Aa__C_D_E_Vv> (Not sure if black or brown based, probably black)

That doesn't line up, you can't have both orange and harles with a full-extension parent.
I think the buck may be a very faintly marked harlequin (I have JUST produced two like that, and as you can read here his dad had also produced a kit that looked like an orange but had a singular line running through the back leg) but that said I am not an expert.

Thank you so much! I was so confused for a while then I finally thought lightly marked harlequin and that made the most sense! If I look closely I believe I can see faint stripes as well. I was hoping someone with a little more experience with genetics could confirm my idea!
I have a litter from him with a black vm doe due in a few days and I’m excited to see what kits he’ll produce with her!

WE stands for white eared, the vienna mark making the ears white.

I believe that he or the doe or both are Vienna carrier.

The pictures of your kits are beautiful and super helpful! Thank you!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hello! This is my first time posting!
I have a question about my holland lop buck. When I first got him I thought he was orange however I bred him with a chestnut doe and she produced oranges and harlequins. How is that possible? I only recently started researching rabbit genetics. If he was orange he would have ee and in order for my doe to have orange kits she would have Ee. Then where would the harlequin come from? I then thought that he was just a lightly marked harlequin. Would that be the case? Any information would be extremely helpful! Thank you! I included a picture of the buck and the litter.

Your buck certainly looks torted. Tort is a self variety, so it could hide a harlequin allele <e(j)>, which typically needs to be homozygous to express in a self. And, a harlequin allele can cause "torted" colors, though it usually looks like a torted harlequin if the rabbit is self <aa> with <e(j)> in the dominant position. That said, while tort can be quite variable in terms of how heavily torted the rabbit appears, there are a few places on your buck that make me wonder whether he is actually a torted harlequin <aaB_C_D_e(j)e> rather than a true tort.

I'd expect a lot more dark on the feet and belly of a true tort, and the buck's ear is lighter and has more patchy variations in shade than I am used to seeing. But again there are modifiers that really affect the amount and distribution of the torting coloration.

As far as being chocolate, it's hard to say from the one photo. That could partially explain the relatively light dark parts, but those could also be due to those ever-present modifiers.

So I'm thinking the best guess for that guy is <aaB_C_D_e(j)_> or <aabbC_D_e(j)_>. In either case, the homozygous self alleles could completely or partially hide an <e(j)>. He could be a true tort <aaB_C_D_ee> or <aabbC_D_ee>, but again, the lack of any dark, even chocolate, on his chest/belly makes me suspicious. Also, since the doe doesn't look harlequinized at all, I'd guess the harlie <e(j)> is coming from him.

I don't see any torts in the litter. The two obviously torted kits (blue arrows below) have light inner ear linings, which torts do not (tort is a self variety). I'd probably call those fox, aka torted otter <a(t)_B_C_D_ee>, or possibly japanese fox (aka torted harlequin otter <aaB_C)D)e(j)_>). Otter <a(t)> can hide in agoutis like your doe, which by the way is super cute and does look chestnut to me. I don't see anything that makes me think the doe has <e(j)>; it can sometimes hide behind an E as <Ee(j)>, but that combination usually looks like a harlequinized chestnut. She could easily have inherited the <a(t)> from her otter dam. In that case, she'd be <Aa(t)B_C_D_E_>, possibly <Aa(t)B_C_D_Ee(j)>.

The kit with pink arrows looks like it may be japanese fox; I think I might see torting on its nose and ears, but I'd like some different views to be sure.

I've compared some pictures of lop selves vs steels and now I'm not so sure the black one is steel, I think its just a black self. None of the parents are steels so that would not be possible as steel cannot be hidden.

Steel <E(S)> can be hidden in self <aa> colors, and also to some extent by otter <a(t)_>. A "steeled otter" is identifiable if you know what you're looking at, but to many people it looks like a poorly-marked otter.
The black kit looks black to me; I don't see any evidence that would make me think steel.

I tried my hand at the genes to see if things lined up. I did not understand what you meant by "WE chocolate" for the buck's parent and Google was not helpful so I just put down what I could take from "chocolate"

These days, "WE" usually refers to the White Ear allele, which is on its own locus. It's a relatively new allele that is becoming pretty common in Hollands in the USA (it's been around for longer in Europe).

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Thank you! I’m super new to genetics! Your information has been super helpful!I didn’t know that about the white ears!! I just assumed it was the vm! Here are more pictures of that young buck.

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Hello! My black VM holland lop doe had her kits from that buck this morning and I saw at least 2 harlequins
I guess that’s more proof that my buck is harlequin. Thanks!