Orange or fawn?

[luvabunny]

I'm having trouble on my Elop bunnies determining if they are fawn or orange. The SOP isn't very helpful. One is bright orange and one is a brilliant golden. Both have brown eyes and white undercoats. To me the difference between bright orange and brilliant golden could be left up to the eye of the beholder.
So....can orange (or fawn) only come from certain colors....to be genetically in the background? These babies are out of a black torte papa and fawn or cream Mama's. All of the babies are much more orange in color than either of their Mama's. Backgrounds of both parents are blue, blue torte, black torte and black.
With those backgrounds, is it genetically impossible for me to get either orange or fawn? If not, then it's just up to my beholden eye to decipher either orange or golden.

 

[akane]

Didn't we have an orange, fawn, cream genetics discussion before..... I don't remember what cream was determined to be but black tort should be able to throw all those colors when bred to any of them.

 

[ilovehome]

Orange, Fawn and Cream are agouti based colors with non-extension (ee). Torts are selfs with non-extension (ee), so it is very common to get oranges/fawns from tort-cream parents. I personally call brown eyed darker ones orange, lighter brown eyes fawn, and blue eyed cream.

 

[akane]

Eye color can vary within a color and be the same between colors. Sometimes even within the same litter you can have a perfect one and a DQ of the same color with different eyes. Doesn't tell you much about the genetics. Aside from a few guesses on hidden genes like chinchilla genes sometimes make grey or bluish eyes even when it's not expressed. Dilutes do often have a different color but sometimes not.

 

[luvabunny]

Well, if the parents could throw either, then I think I am going to go with orange. To me they are very brightly colored orange and have dark brown eyes. I just didn't want to go writing something down on the pedigree that was impossible to get with the parentage they had.

Here's another thought. I know all three colors are wide band agouti, but I consider my herd non agouti. I do not have, not have I ever gotten in over 150 babies, a chestnut baby. Is this due to the difference in wide band vs agouti band? Are there any specific colors I should stay away from to continue my non chestnut producing herd? I hate chestnut agouti. Just sayin'.

 

[Dood]

Genetically orange and fawn are the same (A_ B_ C_ D_ ee W_) but they vary in Rufus factors - orange have more (++++) and fawn have less (++) so you wont mess up anyone's breeding program by mis-labeling an organge as a fawn or vice versa - cream should be a blue based fawn/orange but again it is practically impossible to tell since some fawns are so pale and lack any Rufus (-) that they look like orange tinted milk

It can be nearly impossible to tell these colours apart and it is all in the eye of the judge at the end of the day a BOB should be based on conformation and not on colour

Your fawns are all torted chestnuts so as long as you don't intoduce a full extension (E_) colour (ie self black, blue, chocolate, lilac or chinchilla, seal or Siamese sable etc...) you should be good

__________ Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:01 am __________

P.S. it is not possible to get a fawn (or cream) out of the colours you mentioned on their mothers side so something is wrong on her pedigree.

 

[ilovehome]

removed

 

[luvabunny]

Dood, your PS is making me have to ask - why can't I get a fawn out of the Mama's side?
The Mama's are sisters. I call one fawn because she isn't very bright orange and she has brown eyes, and the other Mama a cream, because she is even less orange and has what appears to be blue grey eyes. They were born in my barn. I own their parents, which are a bkn blk torte and a bkn fawn. Those parents come from some of the best stock in the US and I highly doubt there is anything fishy about coloration. The Mama's brother won BOS at the 2012 national convention and the Papa's father was something like #3 top lop in the US. Every rabbit on their pedigree is registered with the ARBA, and they will be red/white and blue registered when they are old enough.

On the Papa's side, he was black torte, out of a lot of black torte and black. Again, some top breeder lines in the US. When these 2 litters were born, I very nearly culled them all, because they were such uninteresting, dull colors. I called them both my "mud" litters because it just looked like a glop of mud in the nestbox. Nothing fancy, nothing bright, certainly nothing brilliant, but as they have grown, they have become very striking orange.

As far as breeding self blue back into the mix, I do that quite regularly and have yet to get a black or chestnut. My line throws quite a lot of blue and I have one buck that seems to be very dominant. Out of several litters, over half have been blue, and he has never thrown a bkn without being bred to a bkn. Actually, bringing in the black torte buck from another line was an attempt to get some different colors instead of blue.

I'm glad calling them orange or fawn won't really make a difference. I believe I am going to stick with the orange because they are very brightly colored. I won't be making this cross again, because I have since sold the buck. If I end up keeping one of these does, I have two very nice up and coming young bucks that it will likely be bred to. One is a bkn blue torte, the other is a bkn fawn. Their breeding will just depend on what their type is as they mature.

I appreciate everyone's help in clarifying this for me.

 

[Dood]

Dood, your PS is making me have to ask - why can't I get a fawn out of the Mama's side?

You only mentioned self colours and not that the dam was from a broken fawn.

Backgrounds of both parents are blue, blue torte, black torte and black.

Of course a fawn can produce a fawn

As far as breeding self blue back into the mix, I do that quite regularly and have yet to get a black or chestnut. My line throws quite a lot of blue and I have one buck that seems to be very dominant.

Then I suspect your does are creams (AKA agouti, blue, non-extension) as test breeding a "fawn" (AKA agouti, black, non extension) to a self blue and not getting any blacks but just blues is highly unlikely, especially if you've produced over 150 kits.

It is also very odd that you are not getting any chestnuts, or opal :mrgreen: from this cross, but it is rather easy to tell a self blue from a blue tort so I assume the buck is a true self blue :shrug: