Nursing rabbit EMERGENCY - possible tumor?

[RachelleM]

I have a Californian doe (not sure how old she is; bought her from a backyard breeder as an adult). She just had a litter of 6 on the 22nd. About 3 weeks before that, however, I noticed a rather large lump underneath one of her nipples. My friend told me to give her peppermint sprigs to "dry her up" in an attempt to counteract possible mastitis. I did, and nothing changed. I quit feeding her peppermint about 4 days before her due date; she was due starting on the 19th.

Since she's given birth, that lump has grown, and it's changed color to a scabby blackish-reddish hue; it's very hard to the touch, and I can't find the nipple anymore. I've also lost 2 kits now, I'm assuming because it's so darn painful for her

I've tried doing "hot" compresses (not too hot of course!) to hopefully dispel some fluids, thinking it may be mastitis, but nothing's changed yet, and I work full time so I can't do it every hour or so; I do what I can where I can. I also clean it with hydrogen peroxide and cotton balls.

Some info on her: It's been averaging about 95-100 degrees where I am in Nevada. I give her a frozen water bottle to play with/snuggle up to because it's so hot. I've cleaned out her hutch using vinegar water. Nothing has changed with her food, and she's eating, drinking and eliminating normally. There is no discharge from the lump, not even pus or blood.

My main concern is, is this really mastitis or is it more like a tumor? I have no problem culling her if it's a tumor, even though it would break my heart to have to do so, she's such a great girl I just don't want her to suffer!! I've read somewhere about giving Penicillin G injections to kill any bacterial infection causing mastitis, but I don't know how much to give or how to administer (directly into the lump, into a thigh, into the scruff...?) She's about 12-13 pounds. Also, since she's not doing well nursing the kits, should I try to bottle feed them? If so, what should I use? My husband and I own a feed store (that's my full time job) so I have KMR on hand, as far as I know that's the only commercial supplement I've heard can be successful in nursing rabbits. (I have tried holding her upside down and latching the kits onto her, but they don't take very well and she just looks like she's in so much pain ) If I start bottle-raising the kits, can I start giving her peppermint sprigs to dry her up, or would it even help?

I've tried attaching a picture of the growth, hopefully it worked!!! Any info/advice would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

 

[Zass]

I would not recommend KMR for rabbits.
Here are the main threads on hand raising kits:
formula-feeding-baby-bunnies-pics-vids-t3691.html

tips-for-handraising-kits-t2486.html

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Hi Rachelle,

that mass looks like a tumor to me, although I must admit to never having seen one that looks anything like it. The dark area that looks almost blistered- it isn't filled with fluid? :?

Since the kits are only six days old you probably wont be able to raise them without her help. I would keep her alive at least until they are three weeks old or so if possible.

If she isn't grinding her teeth she probably isn't hurting too badly. If you have any willow trees you can give her the leaves and branches to chew on. They are a natural source of salicylic acid, which is the active ingredient in aspirin, and will be perfectly safe for her. If she isn't used to fresh greens and weeds, give her mainly the twigs and branches- the bark is where most (or all?) of the salicylic acid is concentrated in any case.

Instead of flipping her, just put a towel on your lap to contain the kits and place her over them. It is more natural for both the doe and the kits to nurse in that position.

You can also supplement them, but I would recommend using Goat's Milk Replacer. KMR tends to cause diarrhea even in kittens. Here is a thread by Miss M regarding hand feeding and the formula she supplements them with:

formula-feeding-baby-bunnies-pics-vids-t3691.html

I'm sorry that a problem with a rabbit brought you here to RabbitTalk, but am glad that you found us. Welcome aboard. :welcome:

 

[Miss M]

I'm so sorry!

My main concern is, is this really mastitis or is it more like a tumor?

I wouldn't rule out abscess (mastitis), but I haven't seen an abscess that looked quite like that. My initial guess would be tumor. Do you think you could get some closer pics that are still clear, maybe from different angles, and different lighting schemes?

Does she react when the area is touched?

What is she doing that tells you that she is in pain?

I have no problem culling her if it's a tumor, even though it would break my heart to have to do so, she's such a great girl I just don't want her to suffer!!

It is good that you are prepared to do this if necessary.

I've read somewhere about giving Penicillin G injections to kill any bacterial infection causing mastitis, but I don't know how much to give or how to administer (directly into the lump, into a thigh, into the scruff...?) She's about 12-13 pounds.

Medirabbit gives tables for rabbit medication. Here's the one for PenG: http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medicati ... iotics.htm PenG is about 3/4 of the way down the page. As an example, the math for a 5-lb rabbit worked out to about .25cc. There are various regimens for PenG. I use the one dose a day for seven days regimen.

How to administer? PenG is usually given subcutaneously (under the skin, but not in the muscle). We have a tutorial on it, written by a lady who is/was a vet's assistant, I think: how-to-give-a-subcutaneous-injection-t8690.html

She recommends giving it in the scruff, but the times I've done it, I just couldn't get enough scruff together. I ended up just doing it wherever I could gather up the most skin. I started rotating injection sites, front shoulder, in front of back leg, other front shoulder, in front of other leg. Watch for pooping and eating... sometimes a rabbit will stop eating on antibiotics. They don't have to be eating a lot, but they have to keep eating.

Okay, have to leave, I'll post more later! <br /><br /> -- Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:48 pm -- <br /><br />

My husband and I own a feed store (that's my full time job) so I have KMR on hand, as far as I know that's the only commercial supplement I've heard can be successful in nursing rabbits.

I know some have used it successfully, but as the others said, there's a high chance of it causing diarrhea, because it is based on cow's milk. Goat's milk replacer used alone or as the goat's milk ingredient in the formula mixture in the formula feeding thread, or canned evaporated goat's milk, or even straight goat's milk would be much better. Some prefer to use just straight goat's milk... I like the formula, because it is very rich. Rabbit's milk is very rich, which is how baby bunnies grow so fast on so little milk.

You have a better chance of raising the babies on formula if you have help from the doe, absolutely. But... you have a much better chance of raising 6-day-olds on your own than 2-day-olds. If they're not really getting anything from their mother, then you'll need to try formula if you want to save them. I find an eyedropper easier to control than a syringe for going that slowly, and they do learn to suck it out. Eventually.

 

[RachelleM]

Thank you so much guys, this information sounds very reassuring! I will try nursing her kits on her in the morning; a breeder friend of mine loaned me a foster doe, so at least they were fed today Good to know about positioning the doe over the kits, thank you!

Since my post, it seems the scab has separated from the soft tissue, and what looks like a large white ...something is trying to push it's way out. In my reading on abscesses, the pus inside can either be ...well, pus-ish... Or more of a cheesy consistency. I tried squeezing it out a couple times and it kinda just sloughed off. I don't have any special tools or anything, so I can't "dig" that stuff out like the vets do on youtube, but I don't have a vet anywhere (that I can afford) to extract all the pus. What should I do?

As far as signs of pain, now that I think about it, she hasn't really shown any...I just assumed it hurts, because ...well, it's a huge growth on her lol, and I've heard horror stories of how bad mastitis hurts a human mom :x

I will try to get some more pictures tomorrow!

-- Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:25 pm -- <br /><br /> -- Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:31 am -- <br /><br /> Okay, I went to flip her over this morning and the whole thing has taken on a new look - now it looks like some tannish colored thing is popping out on the side...it's moveable, and when I checked on it, I saw the hole where the abscess is and it looks like it wants to pull some of the white nastiness out with it. Omg what do I do?!?! Do I try to clean it out??? I have Q-tips, but they don't seem to be as adequate as the tools the vets use on Youtube...!! She's still doing good, no signs of distress, but she looks at me like, "mom, get this thing off of me!!!" :x

I read somewhere that an abscess can transfer into the bloodstream and that's not a good thing...is that true?

Even if I get rid of this thing somehow, will I ever be able to breed her again?

Sorry for any blur in the pictures, I'm using my phone's camera and it's pretty weak...

 

[Zass]

I think you should clean it out as best as you can, and rise it out well with something antiseptic too.
Thick white cheesy pus is common in abscess, and should be removed ASAP.

I can't really say what you should and shouldn't do, but I can say that I personally wouldn't breed a doe after something like this.

 

[RachelleM]

Thank you Zass, I'll clean it out today then. Would hydrogen peroxide be acceptable for cleaning it out? I also have iodine and rubbing alcohol, but I'd think those would burn pretty bad. Do I put antibiotic ointment in there?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Would hydrogen peroxide be acceptable for cleaning it out?

Yes. The foaming action should help to loosen up the pus that is in there. Use cotton swabs to wipe as much out as possible. While repeated applications of peroxide is not generally recommended for wound care (it kills newly forming cells), in the case of rabbit abscesses the benefits outweigh the damage done. I would irrigate the wound with it daily until you no longer see any new pus formation.

Do I put antibiotic ointment in there?

Do you sell Nu-Stock at your store? That is what I would use.

will I ever be able to breed her again?

A couple of our members have treated abscesses (from wounds and mastitis) and then continued breeding their does.

a breeder friend of mine loaned me a foster doe, so at least they were fed today

Mastitis can be passed to the doe from the kit's mouths. I would swab her nipples with a weak Betadine solution after they nurse, and keep her cage very clean.

 

[RachelleM]

Awesome, thank you so much MamaSheepdog! When I go to "perform surgery" on the abscess, should I cut away any dead tissue? I don't have any Nu-Stock; I can order it, but it'll take a few days for delivery. Am I okay to use plain ol' Neosporin in the meantime?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Am I okay to use plain ol' Neosporin in the meantime?

No- neosporin will cause the wound to close over. You want it to remain open as long as possible.

Blu-kote might be a good alternative. I used raw organic honey when one of my does had an abscess from a bot fly.

You can also rinse the wound with a solution of 1tsp salt to one cup boiled water. Allow it to cool (obviously!) before using. <br /><br /> -- Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:06 pm -- <br /><br />

should I cut away any dead tissue?

From what I can see, there isn't any. The lips of the wound just look a little red and inflamed.

 

[RachelleM]

Good to know about the salt/water rinse, thank you. As far as the dead tissue thing goes, in the first pic I posted, that big dark red spot - it's really hard, like a giant, thick scab. Do I just leave that attached?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

As far as the dead tissue thing goes, in the first pic I posted, that big dark red spot - it's really hard, like a giant, thick scab.

Oh- so the pus "capsule" is attached to that? I see now that you can flip the thing around... I would cut it off, otherwise it may catch on something and tear her healthy tissue. Fortunately, it looks like the bulk of the pus came with it. Hopefully you wont have a lot more to get out of her. :clover:

 

[RachelleM]

Oh man thank you so much, I'm so relieved I don't have to cull her!!!

I will get it all cleaned up tonight when I get home, and will post updates for sure!!!

Thank you guys SOOOOO much!!!!!

-- Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:25 pm --

 

[squidpop]

Honey also might be a good thing to investigate to pack the abscess. I read a lot of rabbit forums and it seems like more and more vets are recommending honey to pack abscesses. They clean them drain and pack them with honey everyday and keep them open by lancing them so they can drain as long as possible. The best Honey with the best anti-microbial action is Manuka honey umf 15+, the higher the better. Honey is supposed to be good because it smoothers bacteria but doesn't kill the tissue cells (like with iodine) so the wound heals faster.

 

[Miss M]

Wow, I'm glad it looks to be an abscess, instead of cancer!

Here are some pictures of us draining an abscess. We had to put the rabbit down several weeks anyway, but the abscess healed up beautifully. burying-nibbles-a-little-furry-friend-graphic-t13922.html

You may be able to see we did this in the pictures, I'm not sure, but cut away any skin that was covering the abscess, to help keep it from closing too soon. Some places recommend removing the tissue at the bottom of the abscess, as well, especially since fingerlike extensions of the abscess into the body (like I mentioned in that thread) are common. It'll skin back over when it's ready.

Oh, and I didn't know better than to use triple antibiotic at the time. Nu-Stock is what I would use today. Or honey... that looks interesting.

 

[RachelleM]

Ya know, I removed as much as I could tonight and cleaned it up well, but remember that new development, the tannish "something" popping out the side? I think it might've actually been a tumor.

*Quick side note - I've flushed out her wound with hydrogen peroxide, and applied honey to the wound (gonna give it a shot, I'm big into homeopathic treatments). I have her in a sanitized dog crate lined with paper towels - quick and easy to clean - inside the kitchen where I know she won't have her wound exposed to the elements. I don't intend to bandage it, but will keep applying honey as needed. Will post updates!

Back to the tumor theory. 2 other rabbit friends of mine had experienced blow fly abscesses, so I decided to open the growth up and see what was inside. But...it was like cutting into a raw piece of chicken breast (or honestly like examining a liver from a chicken, turkey, or rabbit). There was a gooey "white head" at the innermost part of the mass, but after I wiped that a little, there was absolutely no pus - no toothpaste-type stuff, cottage cheese, liquid...not even blood. It was like a pale pinkish-purple, fully-formed mass. I tried to take pictures (in succession) of the "necropsy" on the mass, as well as the cavity on MaBelle's abdomen. I'll post all of the pictures tomorrow, for some reason my ipad isn't letting me load them.

Miss M, I'm sorry to hear about Nibbles That's what I'm scared of with MaBelle - she's more of a pet than just a breeder (heck, all of them are - but she and my buck Pa were my first rabbits in my rabbitry!)

 

[MamaSheepdog]

:camera: opcorn:

 

[RachelleM]

I think we had some success last night! MaBelle was a champ and laid so still for me, even fell asleep a couple times

When I started, I was able to simply pull that tannish-thing out (slowly and gently of course). Then I cut the dead tissue away. After I got it out, there was virtually no pus inside either the cavity or the mass itself. There were small pockets here and there with the cottage-cheese-like pus, but nothing like what an abscess should've been. I'd had a couple other rabbit friends who had issues with blow fly abscesses, so I opened up the mass to see what was inside - only it was more like cutting into the liver of a chicken, turkey or rabbit!!!

I flushed the cavity with hydrogen peroxide and applied some honey, will see how it works out. I left it unbandaged last night, but it looks like it tried to close, so I will be putting sterile gauze and some VetWrap on it today after work. (She's in a sanitized dog crate lined with paper towels - quick and easy to clean - in my kitchen where I know the wound won't be exposed to the elements.)

I gotta go for now, will post replies to any other questions later!

Miss M - I'm sorry to hear about Nibbles, it's no fun losing critters like that

 

[Sagebrush]

Sorry it has taken me so long to get tothis thread. That really does look like either liver or lung tissue. So glad you got it out, it didn't look good at all when I last saw her.

 

[RachelleM]

Okay - this is my 3rd attempt at posting this now :evil:

So I got her all cleaned out, flushed the cavity with hydrogen peroxide (and have been doing so 2x/day since), and last night I swabbed iodine inside and used a sterile Telfa pad and wrapped her up (the cavity tried closing twice :x ) MaBelle was a champ, she just laid there the whole time, still as a rock, even fell asleep a couple times

Here's the thing... That tannish-something in the last pictures? It was solid. I was able to easily pull it out (slowly and carefully of course) and other than on the very tip of what I call the "stem," there was no pus. A couple of small pockets on the inside of the cavity had the cottage-cheese-like pus, but in conclusion, this was definitely not an abscess; I just don't know what it was though!!!

A couple other rabbit friends of mine had experienced blow fly abscesses, which got me curious, so I opened up the "mass" to see what was inside - only it was more like performing an autopsy on a liver or something. It seriously looked like TISSUE of some sort


Oh good grief, apparently I did post those previously!!! Can y'all tell I'm not so good at this forum stuff?? Sorry lol, and now I can't figure out how to delete that last posting :? Story of my life...