Now what? Nest advice please...

[kotapony]

Hi all! I still lurk daily, just can't seem to make computer time in the day to post. But I've encountered a new problem I'd appreciate some advice on.

A quick recap on my situation. I have a 6'x15' colony which houses one senior doe and two junior does. I returned Mr. Buck to the colony a month ago when junior does hit 5 months old. All three does have now kindled, and therein lies my problem.

Senior doe had 9 kits. Built a beautiful nest, all kits doing well, no problems. I know these are hers as she worked hard on her nest for nearly a week before she kindled, and I witnessed her building it. She had her kits on Wednesday (so 5 days ago now).

Junior doe #1 had her kits on Friday. Hardly built a nest and only had 2. One was at the front of the nest box and frozen when I found it. The other was cold but still alive. Given they were only a few days apart, I plopped him in with senior doe's kits and hoped for the best. He's doing fine, and at this point you can't tell him apart from the others.

This morning I go to check on the nest, and I start scratching my head. The nest that did contain 10 kits (counting the foster) now held 16. Apparently junior doe #2 decided it was too much effort to build her own nest, so she plopped hers in with senior doe's. Life here has been even more insane than usual, so I can't swear they weren't born yesterday. My brain is so fried the days are blurring right now. But the new kits are only 1/2 to 1/3 the size of the original kits, so they can't be older than a day or two. None of the 6 look very well fed, but 3 of the 6 are pretty skeletal. Hubby swiped my cell phone when he ran to the stock sale, so I don't have pictures at the moment.

My question is, what now? I'm afraid with 10 significantly bigger kits the new little ones won't get to eat if I leave everyone in the same nest. I debated hard, and for now added a nice helping of shavings and hay to a different nest box (the one junior doe #1 chose) and put the six new kits there. I caught both junior does and tried holding them on my lap, plopping kits on their bellies to let them eat, and also tried holding the does in the nest to let the kits eat (I did it with both since I don't know which junior doe had which litter). I don't know if rabbits are like cows who can choose to hold their milk back when they're upset or not, but either way I didn't seem to have much luck getting the kits fed. I decided at that point I was probably making things worse instead of better, so I left the kits in the new nest and have left the rabbits alone to calm down for a while.

Was this the dumbest move ever, or does it seem somewhat reasonable? This was a few hours ago I moved the kits. I just checked on them, and they are at least warm (it's in the 70's here today) but do not appear to have been fed.

These kits are nothing special - I raise for meat and the fun of having rabbits. So I'm not trying desperately to save fantastic show stock or treasured pets or any such thing. But the kits are here and I do want to give them the best chance I can without disrupting colony life too much.

So, any thoughts on what to do? Should I leave them in their own nest and hope one of the does figures out to feed them? How far can you push kits without food before you say this isn't working? Should I put them back in the original nest with the bigger kits now? I'm driving myself crazy trying to figure out the best course of action and would appreciate some opinions.

ETA: Hubby just got home. Here are pictures of the nest with all 16, and a comparison shot of an older and younger kit.

 

[akane]

Yes they can hold back milk when nervous and won't feed until they relax. Most of my does I can't get milk out of if I turn them upside down. I always use the infamous Amako for that reason. She just lays there and grunts at me while letting kits nurse upside down.

I would put the small ones back since rabbits are very oriented to their nest and if the original nest exists they may not touch a 2nd nest (now if you destroyed the original nest that's another matter and they are willing to go looking but that's not the case here), pull all the big kits for 24hrs to another warm nest and remove them from the colony to a safe location, and both does will feed the small kits 2 helpings in that time. Then put the big kits back to get food. Repeat as needed and so long as you are only removing the ones getting very well fed they can skip a feeding here or there and be perfectly fine. If the does aren't feeding one right after the other 12 hrs might be long enough and they'll still catch one feeding while the doe feeds the others while the fat ones are gone. Experiment a little and after a few days the small ones should get big enough to compete. Also make sure the nest is big enough. If the kits are in a column the bottom will be made up of the smallest, coldest kits who won't get fed. You want them able to spread which may require something other than your standard nest box. I've used cat litter pans and low sided rubbermaid containers with a brick in one end to hold it down.

They can go about 4 days on no food before they are too weak to drink and will die of cold before then from not producing body heat if not kept warm enough. A day or 2 though they don't seem to really notice even if they look scrawny after that provided they are well fed before hand and again afterward. Watch not only their ribs but their coats. A shiny coat means they are getting the fats they need even if they aren't getting fed well while truly starving kits or those fed on formula will get dull and sometimes patchy coats. Even if their ribs are showing some (not complete skeletons)but their coats are growing in shiny and thick you may just be catching them right before a feeding and they are actually getting just enough to survive and grow. I have a doe who always has big litters and never feeds them to the big fat ping pong ball type. They are always slim with visible ribs but shiny coat and growing. She's never lost one. They just don't look nice and fat.

 

[kotapony]

Thank you, Akane. I like this idea. I'll go ahead and switch out the kits shortly.<br /><br />__________ Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:58 pm __________<br /><br />I finally have a few moments and thought I'd post a quick update. After switching out the 10 older and 6 younger kits every evening for a few days I switched to leaving them all in the nest box for 24 hours then taking out the fattest ones for 24 hours. This had really good results. Not quite two weeks later the oldest started coming out and they all seemed able to compete. I have lost two more, bringing me down to 14. One flat out disappeared. I really doubt he escaped (although he could have). Hubby's theory is maybe a barn owl got him. The other I found still alive, but barely. He kept trying to stretch out straight but moved really slow. He was right at the base of the hay feeder so I'm guessing he got squished by the adults. At the time I put him in the nestbox but he was gone the next morning.

Otherwise everything in the colony is running along smoothly. I left Mr. Buck in this time around, so if all goes well new kits should be on the way.