Noisy breathing

[JG3]

This is not how I wanted to start my rabbitry experience Gonna give a timeline breakdown...

- Bought rabbits from a commercial rabbitry just over a week ago

- all settled in well within 4 days or so, except one buck. He’s settled just more skittish when in his space.

- started transitioning them to our pellets, first mixing 1/4 ours to 3/4 of the rabbitrys, all was well about 6 days in, they are now at 1/2 and 1/2. the ultimate goal is natural feeding but they’ve only ever had pellets so we are switching to our local brand until we can transition to natural done slowly over all summer. Still no GI issues or anything. Also introduced Timothy hay cubes.

- Bred them on day 4 since all were comfortable and familiar with us, greeting us, etc. Seemed at home.

- I posted previously on the breeding board that my one doe bred well, was receptive and lifting etc, but when the buck did his last fall off, he kind of pinned her down and she screamed

- after separating after breeding, all were calm and fine

- 4 days later, my doe that screamed started having noisy breathing, at first we thought it was tooth purring but it’s clear it’s not now

- its obvious she has some upper respiratory inflammation causing the stridor type sound, there is zero discharge from eyes or nose, zero matted fur, etc. The only symptom is this stridor. I’ve heard a couple sneezes but it’s not consistent. The stridor is also not consistent, sometimes you hear it, sometimes you don’t. But it can be loud when you do.

- she is still eating fine, drinking fine, pooping fine, normal poop, active and curious

what the heck is this? Of course my mind is jumping to all the worst scenarios and the possibility of losing her after just getting her and she’s housed with our only other doe (separate sections but beside each other) and so now that one has been exposed too, possibly.

housing is a hutch, mostly Wire but has wood as well for the supports, it’s clean and has air flow. They are out of the weather as it’s 3 sided and roofed and when the weather is bad we put up a tarp over the open side. On nice days we have the ability to open doors on the sides for even more air flow.

weather has been back and forth, it is spring in Ontario after all, we are on like our 4th winter and should get our 3rd spring by the weekend

ive read about how the stress from first time breeding and pregnancy can bring out health issues, could it be this?
did the buck cause trauma falling on her?
is it a cold from the weather?

i dont want to lose my rabbits we’ve barely had a chance to have

I fully trust the rabbitry they came from, I don’t think it’s anything they would have known about.

how can I treat this myself? i gave them all echinacea to boost their immune systems so far.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Mine all sneezed for about 2 weeks last fall…. I was also concerned. I ended up difusing lavender essential oils all over the rabbitry for a month as well as feeding them a LOT of hay and some herbs that I was able to find around my property!!! Never had to deal with it again!

 

[MaggieJ]

Did your rabbits all come from the same rabbitry, JG3? Have you phoned or emailed the previous owner to ask for advice?

I'd suggest you examine the doe really well. Pay particular attention to the ribs, watching for any sign of pain when you gently examine them. It's possible that the buck accidentally hurt her when he fell off and she screamed.

I was going to suggest isolating her, but it sounds as though it's too late for that. I do suggest you isolate the two does from the others as best you can. Just in case.

Look for the thing that is different. Did she get hay at her old home? I have heard of the occasional rabbit that was allergic to something in the hay or to cleansers used in the rabbitry or something else of that sort. Tobacco smoke, perfume ... you get the idea.

I wish I could offer more specific advice, but short of a vet visit -- expensive and not necessarily much help because not all vets are rabbit savvy -- I'm fresh out of ideas.

Please do post updates. That is how we all learn.

~ Maggie

 

[JG3]

Did your rabbits all come from the same rabbitry, JG3? Have you phoned or emailed the previous owner to ask for advice?

I'd suggest you examine the doe really well. Pay particular attention to the ribs, watching for any sign of pain when you gently examine them. It's possible that the buck accidentally hurt her when he fell off and she screamed.

I was going to suggest isolating her, but it sounds as though it's too late for that. I do suggest you isolate the two does from the others as best you can. Just in case.

Look for the thing that is different. Did she get hay at her old home? I have heard of the occasional rabbit that was allergic to something in the hay or to cleansers used in the rabbitry or something else of that sort. Tobacco smoke, perfume ... you get the idea.

I wish I could offer more specific advice, but short of a vet visit -- expensive and not necessarily much help because not all vets are rabbit savvy -- I'm fresh out of ideas.

Please do post updates. That is how we all learn.

~ Maggie

Yes, they are all from the same rabbitry. I haven’t called the previous owner yet.

No, they did not get hay at the rabbitry, only pellets. Would an allergy to something like that take a week to show up?

I don’t think shes in pain because she was still active and moving around, and when I initially heard the noise, I was concerned about GI issues so was poking around and feeling her belly and she never flinched. I will definitely keep checking though.

Thanks for your thoughts, I will update with anything new.

 

[JG3]

No change this morning, the noisy breathing is maybe a little less wet sounding. I assume there is mucous and it’s just staying inside or she’s cleaning it, based on how it sounded. But there isnt enough for it to be matting fur or obvious. I’m hoping I’m right that it sounds slightly better in that regard.

Based on what I’ve read online and around this forum, I’m treating them all (even the ones that seem fine to be safe) with dried echinacea to boost their immunity and hopefully act as an antibiotics, rolled oats as I read it helps with mucous, and grapefruit seed extract in their water to also kill any bacteria and the vit C content.

Will update as anything changes.

 

[MaggieJ]

Your treatment plan is interesting and I'll look forward to seeing how this plays out.

It's possible it is snuffles, brought on by the stress or moving and then breeding. From what I've read, many rabbits carry a dormant form of snuffles that can flare up under certain circumstances.

Hoping your doe continues to improve.

 

[JG3]

Your treatment plan is interesting and I'll look forward to seeing how this plays out.

It's possible it is snuffles, brought on by the stress or moving and then breeding. From what I've read, many rabbits carry a dormant form of snuffles that can flare up under certain circumstances.

Hoping your doe continues to improve.

That’s what I’m wondering but also hoping it’s not the case. Not too optimistic though.

Being this is all new to me, how long should I wait on improvement? Obviously if she gets worse, I know what to do, but if she stays at a stand still, how long before I can expect improvement if she’s going to improve?

 

[MaggieJ]

I wish I had an answer for you. Unless someone else chimes in who has more experience with this problem, you may just need to take it a day at a time for a little while.

 

[JG3]

Today’s Update....

She is no better, but also no worse! Still has the noisy breathing, which I’m pretty sure is being caused by the mucous in her nasal passages and that’s it. I don’t think anything has reached the lungs. Shes on day 5.

Now the doe she’s in the same hutch with but separate sections, we moved them away from the bucks. The bucks are fine. The doe she’s in the same hutch with seems fine too. I mean, I heard two sneezes from her in the span of those 5 days but sometimes they just sneeze. She has no discharge, no consistent sneezing, no watery eyes, etc. Acting 100% normal. So this leads me to think she’s resistant to what’s going on or it’s not contagious.

The one that is apparently sick, is still acting 100% normal too. I found some white mucous on her resting mat, assume she sneezed it out, so I cleaned it up. But otherwise, her nose and eyes are clear and clean, paws are perfect, no consistent sneezing either nor trouble breathing. Only thing off is the rattling breathing.
I would like to get a closer look up her nose to make sure nothing is lodged up it, but I’m not exactly sure how to do that? Any advice, or something only a vet should do?

Currently, I’m think if she stays at her stand still and is pregnant, I’m hoping she can have her kits, care for them and wean them, and we will see if any of them develop symptoms. If so, they’ll be culled and any strong one will be kept (hopefully does LOL) to replace their mom if need be and hoping they have resistance to whatever mom has if she does have something bacterial, viral, fungal, etc.

Just a waiting game I wish I knew the outcome of. LOL.

 

[JG3]

Once again, no change today.

And sadly, so much for trusting the rabbitry they came from. They finally got back to me and said yes, they have had this happen. I even asked them right out before we purchased if they have dealt with any health issues, including snuffles and they said no! I am livid! They suggested an antibiotic and what to do and said it would clear it right up, but I know better than that, nor do I want my animals shot up with antibiotics when they are going to be our food. The plan was natural feeding and things done naturally as possible for the best quality meat, as possible. And I can’t do that with sick rabbits!

I need help thinking this through, please. What are the options.

We have two bucks and two does. All from the same farm. Only one doe is sick. The bucks are fine so far and no longer near the does. I will continue monitoring. The doe shes housed with is not sick either. I mentioned I heard two sneezes out of her within a 5 day span, but I haven’t heard anymore and she has no snot or any other symptoms. I finally got my hands on another cage and we will be separating those two tonight, as well. Or is it pointless at this time since the other has been exposed so long? My logic right now is, separate them, as both may be pregnant and I don’t want the one infecting the others kits. Once they're separate and if they both kindle, we will cull any that show symptoms and keep the strong, assuming they have resistance. We would also see if the other is a carrier if her kits get sick still with them separated. Does this make sense? Is there something better to do? The only thing I don’t like about this plan is that it immediately messes up our genetics and we start out by inbreeding if we have to keep kits to breed back to their fathers. But, maybe that’s also good in a way because if the fathers are strong and resistant, it will compound that strength to breed their daughters to them and if I breeding issues come up in the future, we can cross the lines.

Another thing is, the sides of their cages are wire, but the beams and corners and such are wood. It’s not 100% wire. How can I sanitize this well? I’m only reading bleach? I don’t own bleach. LOL! Would hydrogen peroxide work? And then letting it sit and dry for awhile for anything remaining to die off? How can I be sure to kill any bacteria on surfaces?

This is so much to think through as a newbie. I’m just so frustrated it started this way, I feel like the money was wasted on sick stock, we’re likely losing the most promising doe. Just... uuugggghhhhhhh....

 

[MaggieJ]

Don't panic!

Lots of rabbitries have latent snuffles in their herd. They carry it but are asymptomatic. This happened with my rabbits. When I brought in a rabbit from another source, I naturally quarantined it, but when the month had passed and I put it in a cage near my other rabbits, it died of something respiratory within a day. My own rabbits were very healthy, so it took a while before I realized that they likely carried latent pasteurella (snuffles). I closed my rabbitry -- no live rabbits coming in or going out -- and had no further problems.

Likely the doe developed symptoms because of the stress of moving and the accident with the buck during mating. If I am guessing right, she will probably recover (that is, overcome the symptoms -- she would still be a carrier.)

I wouldn't worry about inbreeding. Rabbits can handle a lot of inbreeding. Parent to offspring is better than sibling to sibling. But note that experiments with sibling breeding showed 17 generations of sibling breeding before problems showed up.

For sanitizing, I would think that hydrogen peroxide would work fine. Afterwards put the cages and equipment out in the sunshine for a few days. UV destroys most disease germs.

I hope others will post about their experiences. I could well be missing something since I am writing this from memory and it was at least ten years ago.

Hang in there. This is a horrid start to your rabbit venture -- the breeder should have made full disclosure -- but you can work around it. I'd give it some time, let the does kindle and raise their young, and see how it goes. There's a good chance that the other three rabbits are also asymptomatic carriers, so the alternative would be culling everything, sanitizing, and starting with new stock. I don't recommend that at this point.

 

[JG3]

Don't panic!

Lots of rabbitries have latent snuffles in their herd. They carry it but are asymptomatic. This happened with my rabbits. When I brought in a rabbit from another source, I naturally quarantined it, but when the month had passed and I put it in a cage near my other rabbits, it died of something respiratory within a day. My own rabbits were very healthy, so it took a while before I realized that they likely carried latent pasteurella (snuffles). I closed my rabbitry -- no live rabbits coming in or going out -- and had no further problems.

Likely the doe developed symptoms because of the stress of moving and the accident with the buck during mating. If I am guessing right, she will probably recover (that is, overcome the symptoms -- she would still be a carrier.)

I wouldn't worry about inbreeding. Rabbits can handle a lot of inbreeding. Parent to offspring is better than sibling to sibling. But note that experiments with sibling breeding showed 17 generations of sibling breeding before problems showed up.

For sanitizing, I would think that hydrogen peroxide would work fine. Afterwards put the cages and equipment out in the sunshine for a few days. UV destroys most disease germs.

I hope others will post about their experiences. I could well be missing something since I am writing this from memory and it was at least ten years ago.

Hang in there. This is a horrid start to your rabbit venture -- the breeder should have made full disclosure -- but you can work around it. I'd give it some time, let the does kindle and raise their young, and see how it goes. There's a good chance that the other three rabbits are also asymptomatic carriers, so the alternative would be culling everything, sanitizing, and starting with new stock. I don't recommend that at this point.

Thank you for your calm thoughts. I’m trying my best to look at the bright side as it being a learning experience and preparing me more, it just sucks, big time. LOL.

So do you think it’s pointless to separate the does then? Should I just leave them in their hutch, let them kindle (assuming theyre pregnant) and then at weaning, put the kits in the grow out cages and observe? Would I still cull the ones showing weakness, including the doe? I don’t want to keep breeding weakness or compound a problem. Im okay with keeping ones who can show resistance though, and hopefully once fully on natural feeding, that will keep it suppressed too.

I don’t plan to give the antibiotics, so the natural treatment Im trying is all I really have to rely on. I’m just worried I’ll lose both does, all kits and be stuck with two bucks... and that doesn’t give me meat

 

[MaggieJ]

You could separate the does -- it would do no harm -- and if the second doe has not already caught it, it might keep it from happening. Normally, any time anything even possibly infectious shows up, putting the affected animal in quarantine is warranted.

I'm not real knowledgeable about snuffles. As I said, by the time I realized it was likely dormant in my herd, it was too late. And it was never proved in any case. I had yard sale meat mutts -- $5 each -- and bred up from those humble beginnings. So if I had to cut my losses it would not have been a huge financial loss. But since it was only newcomers that were affected -- and I'm not even certain about that -- running a closed rabbitry worked fine.

I don't know how much money you have tied up in these rabbits, but in the event that you end up with just the two bucks you might be further ahead to cull them as well, sanitize everything, and start fresh with new stock. But you're a long way from that drastic step, so don't cross that bridge until you come to it.

The most important thing is not to let your problem become someone else's problem by letting live rabbits leave your rabbitry. If the breeder knowingly sold you rabbits from an infected herd without telling you, s/he was irresponsible.

 

[JG3]

Okay, thank you so much Maggie for helping me gather my racing thoughts.

I think I have my game plan thought out, until I start questioning myself again, at least. Lol

But one last question... everything says once the kits are 4 weeks old a d can be weaned, to remove the doe so that you don’t stress the kits more by moving them and make them succumb to snuffles. With the cages we have, that’s not an option. Will it really be that devastating if we move the kits instead? Also, I’d think it’s a good thing of you find the weak ones that way.
Goodness, I really hope they birth some resistant does. Kind of what I’m banking on right now.

 

[JG3]

And yes, I will never let a live rabbit leave to devastate anyone else.

 

[MaggieJ]

About the kits. Certainly you can remove the kits instead. It might be a good idea to let them stay five weeks instead of four, provided they are not too crowded and the doe doesn't get nippy with them. She probably won't because she won't have another set of buns in the oven. You can play all this by ear.

Most of these "rules" are not rules at all. They are just things that many people have found to be helpful hints.

You do realize that in a year's time -- or sooner -- you'll be answering questions for people just starting out. What do you think of that?

 

[JG3]

About the kits. Certainly you can remove the kits instead. It might be a good idea to let them stay five weeks instead of four, provided they are not too crowded and the doe doesn't get nippy with them. She probably won't because she won't have another set of buns in the oven. You can play all this by ear.

Most of these "rules" are not rules at all. They are just things that many people have found to be helpful hints.

You do realize that in a year's time -- or sooner -- you'll be answering questions for people just starting out. What do you think of that?

Lol! As long as I can make it through this without losing all my rabbits first. The waiting game is what’s the hardest now...

 

[JG3]

Update...

I’ve noticed the last two days the noisy breathing getting to be quieter. Today, I didn’t hear it at all when I did the morning routine. So I think she’s improving. There also hasn’t been any white snot since that one day I wiped it off the rest mat, which was a week ago.
I changed the treatment up a bit with more reading. Both the sick doe and the one housed with her were getting rolled oats and dried echinacea in their feed and grapefruit seed extract in their water. I wasn’t seeing as fast of an improvement as I would have liked, so I went to a local nursery and bought some fresh oregano plants Since mine isn’t growing yet. I introduced slowed and now they each get a stem of it with leaves morning and night. I’d say I started that about a week ago too and I think it’s what’s making the most impact. I’ve stopped the oats to prevent excess weight gain. I read it was good for mucous and if that’s true, it didn’t work well enough does me to notice improvement so I figured no point in continuing. I kept up with the echinacea since it’s an immune booster and the GSE since it would kill bacteria, in hopes of preventing pneumonia. Pneumonia hasn’t happened but I can’t say if it was the GSE that’s the reason or not. But figured no harm. I’m going to let up on that too and see what happens, I don’t want to keep them on it for more than 2 weeks. I would say the fresh oregano twice daily has made the biggest improvement. I’m hoping she recovers and doesn’t relapse when she kindles.

Now, the doe she’s housed with, I don’t know what to think of. Obviously all the rabbits have been exposed here when she got sick, plus they all came from the same farm where the owner admitted he’s had this, so likely all carriers. This doe sneezed a handful of times over a few days, but that’s it and she is no longer sneezing nor had any other symptoms. I don’t know if the sneezing was her sick or just regular sneeze from something on her nose. For living with a sick rabbit sneezing on her, I think she did excellent resisting it. I’m not sure if the dew sneezes are worth culling her too after weaning the kits. I’d hate to cull her if it was just a regular sneeze. And if she was sick, she showed resistance by not getting worse. What would you do with her? Especially when they’re likely all carriers anyway?

The bucks are still perfectly healthy. Not even one sneeze out of them.

 

[JG3]

Update...

As of yesterday and today, there has been no noisy breathing. And no other symptoms. I stopped the GSE on the weekend, they are only receiving fresh oregano morning and night.
I hope she has recovered and stays well, especially as she is due to kindle next week.

 

[MaggieJ]

Update...

As of yesterday and today, there has been no noisy breathing. And no other symptoms. I stopped the GSE on the weekend, they are only receiving fresh oregano morning and night.
I hope she has recovered and stays well, especially as she is due to kindle next week.

JG3, I'd say you did extremely well working intuitively on this problem. Oregano does have medicinal properties and it is also a safe rabbit food, so it makes sense to continue with it.

If you have no plans to add new stock from another source, I suggest you just continue with the does you have and see what happens. A few sneezes without mucous is probably not a sign of illness.

As I mentioned before, my rabbits apparently were asymptomatic carriers of snuffles. I rarely brought in new rabbits, but the few I did acquire did not do well here. It was some time before I realized that I was bringing them into a problematic situation. None of the rabbits from my original line and none of the offspring born here ever showed symptoms of disease.

The way I see it, if you stick to "no rabbit leaves here alive" then you are doing no harm working with the stock you have.

Thanks for the updates. I hope other members will explore the possibilities of oregano as a rabbit medicinal.