Newbie question about chestnut color

[Juci]

I’ve been trying to learn more about color genetics, and I’m wondering why I’ve never had any chestnut kits pop up in my rabbits.

When I use the color calculators online, and based on some videos and articles I’ve seen about rabbit colors it seems like the colors I have should be making at least some chestnut. For example, I have an orange buck that I bred to a light grey doe. She had 8 babies and I’m pretty sure they’re all very light/white with the exception of one darker grey. They’re only a day old so I can’t tell the colors for sure, but pretty sure no chestnut.

The other pair I have is less straightforward, but I think the doe is a smutty orange or castor and the buck is a dark sepia colored self chin. I’ve been considering him black self chin. According to the calculator I should have about half chestnut babies from these, but out of three litters I’ve only ever gotten oranges, blacks, frosties, one rew and a sallander.

I’m curious if there’s something I’m missing about how the colors work? Or is this just chance that I’ve never gotten a chestnut kit? I thought by mixing orange agouti genes with chinchilla genes that chestnut is a common result.

I’m not breeding for any particular color, just really curious.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I’ve been trying to learn more about color genetics, and I’m wondering why I’ve never had any chestnut kits pop up in my rabbits.

When I use the color calculators online, and based on some videos and articles I’ve seen about rabbit colors it seems like the colors I have should be making at least some chestnut. For example, I have an orange buck that I bred to a light grey doe. She had 8 babies and I’m pretty sure they’re all very light/white with the exception of one darker grey. They’re only a day old so I can’t tell the colors for sure, but pretty sure no chestnut.

That is a little surprising that you're not getting chestnut from orange x chinchilla, but it really is the luck of the draw. If you try the breeding again, you may get nothing but chestnuts! And if most of the kits are white, that could be where your chestnut is hiding - behind the <cc> that covers everything else up. In fact if you got mostly REW from that pairing, you've already beaten the odds.

The other pair I have is less straightforward, but I think the doe is a smutty orange or castor and the buck is a dark sepia colored self chin. I’ve been considering him black self chin. According to the calculator I should have about half chestnut babies from these, but out of three litters I’ve only ever gotten oranges, blacks, frosties, one rew and a sallander.

Well, castor is chestnut. But either way, orange or castor should have given you chestnuts when paired with a self. They both carry self, they both carry REW and they both carry non-extension (since you got frosty and sallander), so you've got a lot of possibilities n the kits, but I agree that it's surprising that out of three litters you have no chestnuts.

Do you have photos of the rabbits you're working with? Maybe one isn't what it seems...

 

[Juci]

Do you have photos of the rabbits you're working with? Maybe one isn't what it seems...

I was wondering about that too! Here are my breeders. I was thinking the first pair is more straightforward because the orange buck is a pretty clean orange, and the doe seems to match up with most light greys I’ve seen.

Orange buck “Butterbeer”


Light grey doe “Lady Grey”


And here’s the second pair that I’m not 100% sure that I have the right colors. Especially the buck. I had another thread a while back asking about his color when he was younger. I think on that thread people mostly thought he was a self chin.

Smutty Orange doe “Buttercup”


Self chin buck “Banbury”




Thank you for your input! Your posts are always so helpful.

 

[Juci]

Here are some photos of Buttercup and Banbury’s kits in case it helps. They’ve had three litters so far. I’ll also add a photo of the new litter from Lady Grey and Butterbeer when I can get a picture with good enough lighting.

Litter 1:


Litter 2:


Litter 3 (just born today!)

 

[judymac]

Interesting conundrum. My first thought is about Banbury. He doesn't look black to me. I assume he's in a molt? How much direct sunlight is he in? The color looks sable based, a dark sepia brown instead of black. This is a black self chin, with a very light blue gray chin eye. It's the first time I've had a self chin with this pale of an eye, but that's not the important part. The black self chin looks like a regular self black. No real difference in the coloration (except the eye in this case.) Your rabbit doesn't look rich black, it has a brown tint to it, which would be classic sable. Chinchilla c(chd) eliminates the yellow tones, but the dark shades are not affected. Sable c(chl) also removes the yellow, but also reduces the intensity of the dark shades, so black becomes sepia brown.

Does Lady Grey have some white on her? It looks like the dewlap and on the leg is very pale.

Buttercup has the normal agouti markings, and the smut is dark, likely a black-based ticking (the photo is fron her ear), which explains the black offspring. Chestnut is also a black-based agouti, without the fawn non-extension recessive ee that turns the coat yellow/tan/orange.

The kits from Buttercup and Banbury include orange, which requires two recessive 'e' genes. Since Buttercup is ee, she can only donate a recessive 'e'. The other has to come from Banbury. So he must carry a recessive as well plus 'E' for full-extension, Ee. Red-eyed white is also a double recessive, so both Buttercup and Banbury have to have a copy. Buttercup is full-color, so she would be Cc. If Banbury is a sable, he would be c(chl) c.

The Dutch-marked kit in the new litter is interesting. Do you have Dutch or Blue-eyed white in the background?

Self-colors like black are double recessive non-agouti. Orange is dominant agouti, so Buttercup must be Aa. Sable is non-agouti, aa. Black is dominant. Since both orange with black ticking and sable are black-based, both must be B- (the dash means we can't tell about the second allele, since black only needs one dominant allele to show black coloration.) I am a bit confused about the white kit with the little bit of color on the nose:


Is that chocolate? If so, both parents must be Bb, since chocolate is a double recessive. I can't tell much about the shade. How did the rabbit eventually turn out? Eye color?

Okay, chestnut is all dominant, A- agouti, B- black, C- full-color, D- dense color, E- normal extension. Buttercup may be Aa B- Cc D- ee and Banbury aa B- c(chl)c D- Ee. To get chestnut, mom has to donate the agouti A and full color C, dad has to give non-extension E. You have a 50/50 chance for each one, but to get chestnut, it's like having to flip three coins, and have all three show up heads at the same time.

 

[Juci]

Interesting conundrum. My first thought is about Banbury. He doesn't look black to me. I assume he's in a molt? How much direct sunlight is he in? The color looks sable based, a dark sepia brown instead of black. This is a black self chin, with a very light blue gray chin eye. It's the first time I've had a self chin with this pale of an eye, but that's not the important part. The black self chin looks like a regular self black. No real difference in the coloration (except the eye in this case.) Your rabbit doesn't look rich black, it has a brown tint to it, which would be classic sable. Chinchilla c(chd) eliminates the yellow tones, but the dark shades are not affected. Sable c(chl) also removes the yellow, but also reduces the intensity of the dark shades, so black becomes sepia brown.

Now that I’m seeing your beautiful black self chin, I’m thinking Banbury might actually not have any true black on him. He definitely doesn’t have that rich shiny black, and his eyes are dark brown. I thought he was in a molt too, but he’s looked like this for the past 3 months or so. Always with darker feet and head, and those funny spots on his front and hind legs. Could he be stuck in a molt maybe, or it’s an odd coat pattern. There’s lots of indirect light in his pen but very little direct sunlight.
Here’s a more close up photo of him from today


If he’s sable, that might explain why his offspring aren’t what I expected.

The white kit from the second litter turned out to be a frosty, I think. She has dark brown eyes, but very little color on her ears for a frosty. Here’s a current photo of her:




I suspect Buttercup has some Vienna in her background because in every litter so far there’s one Dutch marked kit- but not perfectly Dutch. The orange and white to the side of the frosty above has a white ear tip and other spots.

I’d love to try to get some sable offspring, but I’m guessing Buttercup has too many dominant traits. I’ve been wanting to try breeding Banbury to Lady Grey, but she wouldn’t accept him which is why I ended up breeding her to Butterbeer instead. My plan was always to have Banbury x Lady Grey in order to get a line of chinchilla offspring, thinking he was a self chin. If I can get Lady Grey to accept him next time, that will be interesting to see what they produce…

 

[Juci]

I remembered you asked about Lady Grey, she has a white belly and the eye circles, but no other white on her body. She’s light but has black ticking and ear lacing. Dark brown eyes.

Also, thank you so much for the input! I’ve been trying to figure out how to put together their genetics, so I appreciate all the info.

 

[Juci]

Here are some photos of Lady Grey x Butterbeer’s kits. In better lighting it looks like maybe some of these could be chestnut after all. I thought they were chinchilla yesterday, but I don’t have much experience to be able to tell the difference. There’s 3 dark ones with light inside ears and a spot on top of their heads, and 5 light ones.

 

[judymac]

At birth, my black chins and chestnut agoutis look the same, black with white inner ears.


However, within a week or so the difference will be obvious. The eyes on this 10 day old chestnut are just opened, but you can see the fawn bands are already developing on the hairshaft:

Here is the chin at a few weeks old, notice there is none of the yellowish tones, just shades of gray with black tips:

As to the all-white frosty, that's actually a good sign. Frosty is a fawn/orange chinchilla, a chin with the non-extension ee recessive. Chinchilla removes all the dark eumelanin pigment, leaving only the yellowish pheomelanin. If you have a smutty orange, and add chinchilla, you get a frosty (also called ermine) with a lot of the dark ticking, it's the smut without the orange. However, if you have a very clear orange, and add chin, you get a clean white rabbit with dark eyes, no smut. Very desirable in oranges, if not frosties, but it means any orange offspring might be quite clean and clear of smut.

 

[Juci]

, if you have a very clear orange, and add chin, you get a clean white rabbit with dark eyes, no smut. Very desirable in oranges, if not frosties, but it means any orange offspring might be quite clean and clear of smut.

This is all good to know! I love the look of a clean orange, so striking. Funny that my doe Buttercup ended up producing such white kits since she has so much smut. The other frosty she had did have some more grey on him, but still very subtle.
Orange has been really popular with pet buyers so far, second only to black. The solid blacks always sell first.

That photo of your chinchilla kit is so adorable. I’m excited to see if the dark ones from Lady Grey’s litter are chestnut or chinchilla.

Thank you for all the photos and info.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Now that I’m seeing your beautiful black self chin, I’m thinking Banbury might actually not have any true black on him. He definitely doesn’t have that rich shiny black, and his eyes are dark brown. I thought he was in a molt too, but he’s looked like this for the past 3 months or so. Always with darker feet and head, and those funny spots on his front and hind legs. Could he be stuck in a molt maybe, or it’s an odd coat pattern. There’s lots of indirect light in his pen but very little direct sunlight.
Here’s a more close up photo of him from today
If he’s sable, that might explain why his offspring aren’t what I expected.

I would say without a doubt that he's a sable, of the darker tones; they can vary tremendously, and they tend to continue to darken as they age. He's got the sable shaded/pointed look as well, with the darkest colors on his nose, ears and feet.
Here's another example of a sable (in a crazy molt).


Also, one of his kits looks like it may have been a sable point, which is a sable with two non-extension alleles (the same ones that produced the orange). Do you remember what color this kit's eyes were?


And the kit in litter #2 pointed out by @judymac looks like what some of my sable points started out looking like:

 

[Juci]

I would say without a doubt that he's a sable, of the darker tones; they can vary tremendously, and they tend to continue to darken as they age. He's got the sable shaded/pointed look as well, with the

Wow, the rabbit in the photo is gorgeous, even with the molting. The coloring does look most like him. It will be fun to see what Banbury looks like after he finishes molting. And he definitely did darken with age. When he was young I thought he was either blue or chocolate for a long time.

I kept the kit in the photo with the darker ears, and he turned out to be a sallander, I think. I was really confused about what color he was until someone here on this forum pointed out that he’s sallander. He has Vienna markings but the swirly iron grey color, and dark brown eyes. Here he is at around 10 weeks, and then current.

I named him London Fog, hence the photo with the tea. funny enough, his head darkened and now he looks less like it than he did when he was little.

 

[Captaincatholic]

Now that I’m seeing your beautiful black self chin, I’m thinking Banbury might actually not have any true black on him. He definitely doesn’t have that rich shiny black, and his eyes are dark brown. I thought he was in a molt too, but he’s looked like this for the past 3 months or so. Always with darker feet and head, and those funny spots on his front and hind legs. Could he be stuck in a molt maybe, or it’s an odd coat pattern. There’s lots of indirect light in his pen but very little direct sunlight.
Here’s a more close up photo of him from today
View attachment 34577
View attachment 34578
If he’s sable, that might explain why his offspring aren’t what I expected.

The white kit from the second litter turned out to be a frosty, I think. She has dark brown eyes, but very little color on her ears for a frosty. Here’s a current photo of her:

View attachment 34580
View attachment 34579

I suspect Buttercup has some Vienna in her background because in every litter so far there’s one Dutch marked kit- but not perfectly Dutch. The orange and white to the side of the frosty above has a white ear tip and other spots.

I’d love to try to get some sable offspring, but I’m guessing Buttercup has too many dominant traits. I’ve been wanting to try breeding Banbury to Lady Grey, but she wouldn’t accept him which is why I ended up breeding her to Butterbeer instead. My plan was always to have Banbury x Lady Grey in order to get a line of chinchilla offspring, thinking he was a self chin. If I can get Lady Grey to accept him next time, that will be interesting to see what they produce…

Lovely rabbits!

I recently had good luck getting does to accept my choice of buck by breeding at 2 or 3 weeks after kindling. Maybe that could give you a better shot at the genetics you want to try.

 

[Juci]

Lovely rabbits!

I recently had good luck getting does to accept my choice of buck by breeding at 2 or 3 weeks after kindling. Maybe that could give you a better shot at the genetics you want to try.

This is really good to know! I’ll definitely try this with her.

 

[Juci]

I’ve been messing around some more with the rabbit color calculators, and I’m thinking that the doe I thought was smutty orange (Buttercup) might actually be some kind of a black tort. I never thought of it initially because of her eye circles but after looking into tort, I saw something people were calling “fox” or tort otter. Which I guess can look a lot like an orange agouti rabbit! She has a lot of black fur tips by her tail right now, and on her face. That’s the only visual difference I can see.
This would explain why she throws so many solid blacks, smutty oranges that might have actually been black torts like her, and the one sallander kit. Doesn’t explain the frosties, but the results from the calculators are definitely more accurate when I put her in as a black tort.

I can see now that they’re a week old that two of Lady Grey x Butterbeer’s dark kits are chestnut, and one chinchilla! So it seems that Butterbeer is the true orange after all.

I think I’ll try to breed Buttercup to Butterbeer in a few months as a test to see if this theory could be correct.