New to Rabbits, & first litter fail.

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Hymay

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N Idaho
A little over 3 weeks ago I took the plunge and got into rabbits. I couldn't pass up 3 free buns with cages & gear. 2 does, 1 buck. All were supposed to be about 2 yrs old, & proven. They were given to this couple by a work friend, & they decided that travel was a higher priority, & wanted to pass them on. One of the does had been bred on Oct 1. She finally gave birth yesterday, the 4th to a single kit, while I was at the store. She had pulled some hair, but not a lot, & the kit was cold in the nest box when I found it. It did not look well cleaned, and nowhere near covered with pulled fur. I don't know if it was stillborn, or if it died of neglect. It was large and fully formed from what I could tell.

So here is one of my many questions. I know a new doe should be given a few chances, not judged on a single litter. Since she is supposed to be older, should I send her to freezer camp and get a younger doe, or give her another shot?

My second question... After I fixed up the extra freebie cage, I bought 2 CA mix does from someone nearby. One is a rex mix, and the other NZ. Compared to the free buns, these 2 eat voraciously. I was told to give the free buns 1 tuna can of pellets per day (which I weighed out at 5.5 oz) I have been tossing in freshly sheared lawn & weeds from my backyard as well. The pellets for the 2 CA does will be gone within a few hours.. and they are complete door monsters.. I've considered "Cookie(monster)", "Hoover" and "Dyson" for names for those two. The other 2 does have usually not finished their pellets by the next evening. Finally, the Question~
Should I feed these two extra? Or keep them relatively even? It is possible they were a bit starved from their last residence. I am too unfamiliar with rabbits to tell if they are thinner than they should be, + its getting cold and everyone's fur is thickening. I was thinking keep the ration the same, but give more grasses & hay when i finally find someone willing to sell by the bale.
 
Welcome to RabbitTalk, and to rabbits, Hymay!! :razz:

2 years old, if that age is correct, is not old, so it would be good to give the doe another chance or two at least under your care. :) She may or may not really be proven, depending on how reliable the previous owner was. So I'd treat her like an unproven doe, unless you actually do know for sure otherwise.

What I have read about judging whether rabbits are fat, thin, or just right boils down to this:

Run your hand gently down the rabbit's back, and pay attention to the feel of the spine. If you feel gentle, rolling bumps, the rabbit is at a healthy weight for its size. If the back feels more spiky, the rabbit is thin. If you don't feel the spine, the rabbit is fat.

I've been pretty well blessed. All my rabbits but one self-regulate when it comes to food. They eat exactly what they need, and no more. One doe I have, though, will happily devour as much as you give her. Which reminds me... I need to feel her back. I haven't done it in a while.

Since you are new to rabbits, it would probably be good to not get any more rabbits for now. A buck and two does are good to start with, three does at the outside. So with four does and a buck, you are going to really have your hands full while you learn rabbits. There is a bit of a learning curve, but doing a lot of reading and question-asking on here will help smooth it out considerably. :)
 
I would especially give her a second chance because you don't know how she was bred. You normally want to breed twice in a 12 hour period to get the best litter totals.

She might not have made a nest if she didn't have hay, etc.
 
thanks for the replies! I wasn't sure if a single kit was a really bad sign for an old(er) doe. She did have hay (was alfalfa, all I could get before she was due) but I had to refill the box several times, as most of her hay ended up dug out and under the cage. She seemed to pull it out, gather it up, and try to collect it in her potty corner. After repeated workings, it mostly wound up through the floor. I thought it was also possible she didn't pull much fur if the kit was stillborn. Though, there seemed to be more fur under the cage than the couple clumps in the nest box

The description of how to judge body was superb. The best I had read was to "pet them, and if you feel backbone they're too skinny" Your description was MUCH more helpful.

When I went to buy the cali's, I was only planning on one. Just wanted some blood that I knew something about. Wound up with both since they were getting rid of all but a couple for winter, and a trip. They are good at multiplying.. even without kits yet.

It sounds like she will get another chance. Was just not sure if there were too many bad signs there or not. How long should she rest before being rebred? I was thinking about 2 weeks. Skittles, the other freebie, is due to kindle about then.
 
You can actually rebreed her immediately, and she should be receptive. I've seen the experienced folks on here say that many times. :)

Your doe sounds to me like she's acting like a first-timer, not a "proven" doe. I'm thinking the original owner was not honest to your friend. Hopefully, her instincts will kick in better next time. Some of them take a few tries before they get everything right. Usually, they do just fine after that.

It's not easy figuring why she had a single kit. Could be that she did have more at the beginning of her pregnancy, but all but one were reabsorbed by her body. Could be a heat sterile buck, with a very low sperm count.

The hay being stuffed into the potty corner, then through the cage floor, not pulling much fur, the fur under the cage and very little in the nest box... these all seem to say, "unproven doe" to me.

I'm glad you found the description of how to determine whether a rabbit is fat or not so helpful! :)
 
She is officially getting another chance, She was rebred on the 12th. Skittles, her neighbor, just kindled 7 today. I came out this morning and found her feverishly pulling fur from anywhere she could reach. It was quite a difference between the two. Skittles was 31 days on the nose. At least I know the buck isn't the issue. It was so hard not to go out every 5 minutes and stick my nose in the nest. As it is, I gave her an hour or two, and only did a quick check, to count and make sure everyone was wiggling. So far, so good!
 
Congrats! I recently got a doe that was "bred" but nothing (its day 39). I just bred her with a Nz buck, we'll see. Hope all goes well!
 
whether the kit was born alive or dead, singleton kits tend to have a tough go of it. But she does sound like an inexperienced doe. Giving her another kick at the can will tell you a great deal more about where she's at.
 
Thanks Fuzzy! 24hrs later, and everyone was warm and still wiggling when I checked. Its looking good so far. How much or little should I handle them? I've been pretty cautious so far, just enough to get a count and wiggle check. Kinda hard to do even that without exposing them to the cold. Skittles pulled quite an impressive fur nest. I know I should be checking tummies, but the lil buggers are quite determined to wiggle back to the warm spot, so pulling one off the pile doesn't last very long lol.
 
That's awesome! Yay! :D

I usually check twice a day, at a.m. and p.m. feedings for a couple days, to make sure everyone is alive, and then go to once a day in the a.m. till they come out of the nestbox. About all I do, others may do it different, is count them one by one. I pick them up one by one, set them to the opposite end of the box as I count. When I do that, I'm also looking at them to make sure they have full bellies. I will sometimes walk one over to show my hubby, or hold it a bit longer, it's not going to hurt them. Just that if you have colder weather right now, it may get cold quickly, so just be cautious.
 
Welcome to rabbits Hymay! You have already gotten good advice here. I was going to add one thing though. I would actually give them about half that amount of pellets and more hay. I do a bundle of grass hay about the same size as the rabbit each day. It will be cheaper to feed them this way too, since hay is cheaper than pellets. Mine also get tons of dandelions, greens and flowers both, all summer long. Things like carrot tops are fabulous too, they love those.
If you are having trouble finding hay by the bale, one thing you can do is ask at your local feed store. They will know who has horses/cattle/goats and which of those people sells hay. If you get really desperate, you can go drive through the countryside and look for any of the above animals, LOL. Their owners either will be growing/selling hay, or will know who does.
 
Thanks Into, I do plan on trying to get them on as much hay as possible. Before the snow came, I was foraging as much as I could out of the back yard. It was nice to have an excuse not to mow. It also helps that my back yard is more weed patch than lawn. There are acutally TONS of hay growers around the area. Trouble is.. many of them have 600-900lb round bales, or like I ran into, only sell by the Ton. Its not hard to find, just hard to find small bales, and close by. Otherwise the gas for a few bales will eat up any savings.

As for the buns! They are a full week old now, and all 7 still fat and wiggling. Starting to see one that is outgrowing the rest. They're starting to get downright cute too. After seeing this litter, I felt quite sorry for the first doe who only had one kit. It was a behemoth for a newborn. About the size, or larger than these are at a week. I am somewhat amazed she passed it. (33 ish days in the oven I think? plus an only kit)

I have 2 does that are due to kindle next week. One is gathering her hay in mouth and digging at her cage.. the other not. Starting to think she may have missed.
 
Congratulations on the popples, Hymay! :mbounce:

Glad to hear they're all doing well!

Some does don't start nesting until hours or even minutes before giving birth. Our first doe didn't do any nesting for her first litter until maybe 10 hours before having her litter. At that point, she went absolutely certifiably bonkers. We were keeping her in our bathroom because the porch was being replaced, so she had a litter box, a water dish, and a cardboard box with hay for her nesting box. When she finally started nesting, the litter flew until it covered the bathroom floor and the water was sloshed on the floor and the dish full of litter. I couldn't sleep because she was making such a racket!

Finally, late that morning, she deposited seven little babies into a very neat nest in the hay. :lol:
 
Well, the first litter may not have gone so well, but the second is doing quite well it seems. 7 little bundles of absolute adorable are poking their heads out of the nest now. Litters 3 and 4 were both delivered yesterday/last night, 5 and 6 respectively. While I wasn't that impressed with Cookie's nest when she kindled last night, she apparently shared the feeling. She has pulled a LOT more fur, and continues to pull 12+ hours later. All the kits from both litters passed the wiggle check. I forgot to look at bellies on the 5 litter, but the 6 were all fat & feisty. Not huge litters, but respectable enough for where they all came from. At least I don't have to worry too much about the buck.

I have come up with an odd question or two. The first doe, currently nursing, seems to have developed very large pellets. Not that I keep track, but I noticed many were too big to go through the wire without help.. then noticed they were double the size of the doe beside her. Is this normalish from eating so much more? Or should I say, is it normal for a working mother, or would it more likely be my care and feeding?

Is servicing two does in two days too much on the buck? Should I have spaced them another day or two apart? I did morning/night breedings with both does, a different doe each day. The litter sizes seem similar.

I probably have more, but have forgotten for now :wheelcha:
 
Glad to hear all seems well, Hymay! If you think they're cute now, wait until they've got another week or so on them! The kids and I call them "tribbles" at that point, because they look like the tribbles from Star Trek -- little balls of fluff (but with ears, eyes, and noses). They'll also start doing odd little happy jumps called binkies at about that point. Believe me, you will find yourself wanting to just sit in front of the cage and watch them, it is so funny!

To your questions:
Very large poops - do they look like lots of smaller poops stuck together? If so, they are cecotropes. These are actually not poops at all, but more like the rabbit version of the cud a cow chews. They do come out of the back end, but they are meant to be eaten by the rabbit, and are very rich in nutrients. If she is not eating hers, it may be that she is having trouble reaching them because of her milk coming in, or because her diet is too rich and she doesn't need the extra nutrition (probably not this one, since she's a nursing mother). If they are actually poops -- single, solid, solitary balls -- then I'm guessing her digestive system has slowed down a bit. It might be good to give her regular kitchen oatmeal and plenty of hay for a day or two, maybe with some black oil sunflower seeds (BOSS), to help get things moving. With her nursing a litter, I'd probably replace some of her pellets with it, rather than all.

The working buck - No, two does in two days is not too much for one buck. They can do more than that, even. If he is young, then perhaps he'll produce more in a couple more months. If the does are first-timers, then they may produce more the next time. If the combination of this buck with these does consistently produces small litters, you may need a different buck. If he were servicing several does, and all but one consistently threw large litters, and that one doe consistently threw small litters, then I'd figure the problem was the doe.
 
Hello Hymay, I am a newbie to Rabbit Talk too, but have been breeding & showing buns for a few years now - I handle my newborns freely (can't help it) and my does don't seem to mind, as for feeding the does, I like to give ad lib pellets during the first 2 weeks after they kindle to keep up their condition, when kits come out of the nest box I like to make sure they only get access to the fresh pasture hay for the first 2 weeks until their digestive systems adjust to solid feed ( havnt had a problem with enteritis since, just a thought for your 1st doe if you think she may be a bit of a slow learner (mothering) plan her next litter to coincide with the other doe so you may be able to foster the kits between the two - this will keep smaller litters warmer by adding kits and also if a doe is a poor mother at least you can switch the kits around a bit for the first few days so they all get to have a drink even if it is all from the one doe until the slower doe picks up on what she is actually suposed to do.

Hope this might help :)
 
Yes, the trouble with tribbles is that they are so irrestible =) I am certain they will be completely adorable soon. I am almost counting on it. I think redirecting myself onto a new batch of pure cute will be the only way I'll be able to handle dealing with the realities that lie ahead in meat rabbitry.

They are quite irresistible to handle, I think I have been out 3 or 4 times today, and just stuck my hands/fingers in the nest when I see them. I'd like them to get accustomed to my smell while in a comfortable place. I am fairly certain these kits will be handled far more than their parents were.

As for the poo.. I do not believe they were cecotropes, they were all relatively normally formed, though a bit more flattish like an M&M than the bb/roundish neighbors. They were only clumped together in that they were a pile that would not pass through the 1/2 x 1 floor. The pellets were consistently formed, relatively dry (not mucous covered, as I read cecotropes would be) They were just 2x bigger than the doe next to her, and either needed me to push them through, or her to stomp them through. Today (and perhaps yesterday) she seems to be passing pellets that make it through, though, they are noticeably larger than her neighbor's.
Where does one buy BOSS? I have been giving the does peanuts as treats.(Man those bought me a lot of street cred with the girls!) Since I knew nursing would be eased with more fats in the diet. Not a lot of peanuts, but a few halves every time I'd go in and check on them. I was hoping the shells would go over a little better, it seems only the buck liked those. I have also been giving a "Milk Plus" supplement - I assume its similar to Calf Manna. With all that, I am guessing its one of the above things I am doing, if it is not a normal thing. Something I am doing anyway. It will be interesting to see if the other does have a similar symptom.
 

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