New stock from Iowa. (Final straw)

[grumpy]

Those "wild-things" I bought are now 6-7 months old. I got six of them bred yesterday. The first breeding was around noon. I went back in and re-bred them about six in the evening. I will say one thing about those does.

"They are like picking up a brick!!" When I reached into their pen, they tightened-up and I couldn't hardly grab a handful of skin and hair to pick them up. They are "put-together" very nice. Short fur with excellent fly-back. Stocky, compact, with very wide front shoulders.

Let's just hope they settle down....they're still wilder than a coot!! Very aggressive with my bucks, I didn't even attempt to use a couple of my younger bucks that are ready. They'd take a whuppin' from these gals!! After a couple dozen laps around the buck-pen squealin' and peein' they stood "high" for the boys. I thought about slippin' a step-stool in for the fellas to give 'em a hand. But, the old fella's got the job done tippy-toed!!

All kidding aside, they are some very well-made does. My only concern is going to be their temperamant when they kindle. I'll tolerate a little grouching and grumbling, but not outright aggression.

grumpy.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

totally agree about temperment.

my cali pair are the same as for built like bricks. they skitter into the corner of the cage and squish down and ya have to give a try or two before ya can actually grab em.

 

[6riversfarms]

Lol grumpy. I wish I was as verbous (sp?) as you.

Sounds like some fine rabbits as far as type. My Florida Whites are so muscled that they are hard to grab up by the scruff of the neck. If their temperment remains bad maybe their offspring will be built like them and have calmer dispositions.

 

[skysthelimit]

I got a doe from a guy about two months ago, he said he was going to cull her because she got really snippy when she kindled. Told me to get one or two breedings out of her and then cull her if I couldn't put up with her.

Well I got her here, and compared to the fighting, scratching all heck raisers I already have, she's a cake walk. She grunted at me and lunged a bit when I tried to get the nest box out, but slinked into the corner and then came out for me to pet her.

Well, I thought his buns must be like newborn puppies if this is his trouble maker. He'd cull my whole herd going by his standards. And I have culled older kits on the spot for ridiculously rowdy behavior, but as long as blood is not flowing, I tend to give a lot of leeway to the does.

Of course, none of these so far are does I raised to adulthood. We shall see what the next generation brings.

 

[SatinsRule]

Culling a doe over how she acts either when she is pregnant or has a box full of bunnies is foolish, IMHO. You're judging a doe for being protective over babies which are largely defenseless, as well as for being in a protective posture in such situations. Think about it--does anyone on here blame a human mom for being overprotective of her young children? Of course not. Why is it suddenly so undesirable for our rabbits?

Granted, nobody wants a doe which charges the front of the cage with teeth flared and gnashing when you walk in front of the cage, but I'd much rather put up with an overprotective doe than be stuck with one which won't take care of her babies in the first place. And I'll say this, too. Alot of how she acts directly relates back to how she is handled by her owners. They will mostly do what you will let them get away with. I'm not advocating abusing them, but there is alot to be said for plunking them on the nose with a plastic cup in direct and quick response to undesirable (and usually correctable) behaviors.

 

[6riversfarms]

I had one of my once sweet Florida Whites come at me today with mouth open looking for blood lol. I was just trying to give her a little hay. She got a thump on the nose and no hay for a couple of hours She is a little over two weeks into her first pregnancy. If she doesn't chill out I will cull her after a couple of litters. There are kids around my farm all the time and several are interestes in raising and showing rabbits and help out in the rabbitry. I would fell terrible if a rabbit I knew had a tendency to bite hurt one of them or tried to bite them and turned them off to rabbits.

If it was just me at risk I wouldn't mind. I have always had a thing for spirited animals. For example I have loved handling and riding horses that most people wouldn't have anything to do with because they are not "tame" enough since I was a very young child. Nothing quite compares to the feeling of getting on a horse that still hasn't made up it's mind if you are he is boss.

 

[grumpy]

Culling a doe over how she acts either when she is pregnant or has a box full of bunnies is foolish, IMHO. -does anyone on here blame a human mom for being overprotective of her young children? Of course not. Why is it suddenly so undesirable for our rabbits?

They will mostly do what you will let them get away with. I'm not advocating abusing them, but there is alot to be said for plunking them on the nose with a plastic cup in direct and quick response to undesirable (and usually correctable) behaviors.

We all have our standards.........Mine are obviously different than yours.

Foolish?????? I don't think so. I've dealt with "Chainsaws" in the past. They found that their stay here was very short-lived. I breed for productivity, milking ability, large litters, and temperament. There's no sense in propagating an animal with behavior that borders upon lunacy!!! These new does show they have that tendency. I've treated them no differently than all of my other rabbits. I don't strike my animals! If it has to come to that; then it's adios, fool!! I've got more even tempered does that kindle well, take good care of their young, without trying to chew my arm off when I check their litters. I'm not going to allow it, regardless of how well put-together they are.

I'm amazed at the tolerance involved with less than desirable behavioral traits in animals. What earthly purpose does it serve to procreate this type of behavior adinfinitum. YES, some of my better does are a little "growly" when I inspect their nest and youngsters. They'll give me a "your not welcomed here" stomp with their ears laid back. But, they don't attempt to assault me in my efforts. I'm not even saying these new does will. They may be perfect little mamas and take good care of their young. However, witnessing their behavior causes me to feel they have a penchant for being "unruly".

It's the inabilities or outright refusal of breeders to cull out these traits that have given some breeds of rabbits a bad reputation. Especially NZW's!! You won't find them in my herd for very long. The snake fella is always lookin' for big fat rabbits and I gladly hand those problem children over to him in short order. And if I have any youngsters out of them, they head to the processor in the next shipment. I don't have the time, nor the inclination, to fool with bad behavior. It's too easy to keep top producing does that give me no trouble.

It's never become "suddenly" undesirable with me. I've always felt that negative behavior is something that should not be tolerated. It serves no positive purpose for the breed nor the breeder.

My apologies for being so blunt. But we obviously have a sharp difference of opinions.

grumpy.

 

[3mina]

I deal with the results of not breeding for temperament all the time at work and I am less and less tolerant of rotten behavior with my rabbits because of it. I don't have really bad rabbits and I really want to keep it that way.

 

[MKirst]

I dunno but, I bred John with Jane August 4th, now I want to palpate Jane to see if I feel grapes and there is no way she have it. Since she's been with John on August 4th she is mean to me. She wasn't like this at all, before August 4th.

Every day I'd switch off bringing John or Jane into the house (confined to the kitchen while I cook, bake or can) with a litter box - I want to litter box train them so they can eventually hang out in my house with me every now and again.

Anyhows, John is now litter box trained and Jane isn't because she won't let me get her outta the hutch. I could if I really wanted to but I don't want to stress her if she is prego.

They say you can palpate the doe 12 -14 days after breeding. John fell off her once on August 4th. I wanted to palpate her today.

If I go in her hutch and get her while she fights me off (I know she will) will that stress her too much and she loose the kits ? She's gotten good in the past few days me opening the cage door while feeding .. but if I go back far enough to the house area she grunts, pins ears and lunges at me scratching her front feet on my hands.

 

[3mina]

She shouldn't lose the litter just from handling by you, that said, if she has a really close call with a predator she'd probably resorb the litter. It's a lot harder to stop a pregnancy than one would think.

 

[skysthelimit]

I've taken prego does out of the cage kicking and fighting, and they've had no problems with the litter. Had large litters.

Generally I don't remove any rabbit from the cage unless I have to cut nails or some more extensive examination warrants it (except kits I mess with them all of the time). I like to stick my hand under their belly and feel around. Most won't move, they lay patiently on my hand as I gently feel around.

Fava is only calm when she is bred. I have to keep her bred to keep her pleasant.

 

[SatinsRule]

Culling a doe over how she acts either when she is pregnant or has a box full of bunnies is foolish, IMHO. -does anyone on here blame a human mom for being overprotective of her young children? Of course not. Why is it suddenly so undesirable for our rabbits?

They will mostly do what you will let them get away with. I'm not advocating abusing them, but there is alot to be said for plunking them on the nose with a plastic cup in direct and quick response to undesirable (and usually correctable) behaviors.

We all have our standards.........Mine are obviously different than yours.

Foolish?????? I don't think so. I've dealt with "Chainsaws" in the past. They found that their stay here was very short-lived. I breed for productivity, milking ability, large litters, and temperament. There's no sense in propagating an animal with behavior that borders upon lunacy!!! These new does show they have that tendency. I've treated them no differently than all of my other rabbits. I don't strike my animals! If it has to come to that; then it's adios, fool!! I've got more even tempered does that kindle well, take good care of their young, without trying to chew my arm off when I check their litters. I'm not going to allow it, regardless of how well put-together they are.

I'm amazed at the tolerance involved with less than desirable behavioral traits in animals. What earthly purpose does it serve to procreate this type of behavior adinfinitum. YES, some of my better does are a little "growly" when I inspect their nest and youngsters. They'll give me a "your not welcomed here" stomp with their ears laid back. But, they don't attempt to assault me in my efforts. I'm not even saying these new does will. They may be perfect little mamas and take good care of their young. However, witnessing their behavior causes me to feel they have a penchant for being "unruly".

It's the inabilities or outright refusal of breeders to cull out these traits that have given some breeds of rabbits a bad reputation. Especially NZW's!! You won't find them in my herd for very long. The snake fella is always lookin' for big fat rabbits and I gladly hand those problem children over to him in short order. And if I have any youngsters out of them, they head to the processor in the next shipment. I don't have the time, nor the inclination, to fool with bad behavior. It's too easy to keep top producing does that give me no trouble.

It's never become "suddenly" undesirable with me. I've always felt that negative behavior is something that should not be tolerated. It serves no positive purpose for the breed nor the breeder.

My apologies for being so blunt. But we obviously have a sharp difference of opinions.

grumpy.

Grumpy, what strikes me about your response is not that you dared to differ. That I can deal with. Rather, it's the part that you left out of my initial post, much of which explains in precise detail what I do and why I do so.

If you want to cull out and eliminate rabbits at the first bite, that's your business, but it's foolish and nonsensical to assert that all behaviors those rabbits display is inherited. Much of it is learned, and as much as is learned can also be unlearned, as well.

Again, you can disagree with me, and I respect your right to do so, but in the end, I'm as much entitled to my opinions as you are to yours.

 

[grumpy]

We agree to disagree.

grump.

 

[SatinsRule]

We agree to disagree.

grump.

Absolutely. I don't expect people to agree with me, ever.

 

[AnnClaire]

Grumpy,

As you indicate, these were not handled appropriately as babies, so they came to you with bad manners. I have a doe that came to me that way. With a little time, I have seen her settle, but she still doesn't look for contact, just that she will tolerate it. Her brother, however, went to freezer camp within 30 days of me bringing him home.

I also will not tolerate an animal putting their teeth on me ... just isn't gonna be allowed. However, scratching and lunging will be tolerated only if a doe has kits in the nestbox here. And that only for a couple of litters as I absolutely expect her to learn that I am not harming her kits and I will be allowed to handle them without her aggression.

I know you have waaaaay more litters than I, but if there is any way that you can wean the litters at 3 weeks and finish hand raising them with a lot of people contact, you can break the bad behavior in one kindling cycle and choose replacements out of them that will be much calmer and more accepting of you. I would be more than happy to hand raise the litters for you LOL I LOVE playing with the babies :cheesysmile:

 

[grumpy]

Thank you, Ann.

It's very true, I certainly don't have the time to dedicate to all of the new litters that are born. Sometimes, I'll have as many as 10-12 does kindling within a day or so of each.

The Iowa does are spooky and skittish. I have no idea of the conditions they were raised in. Who knows how many varmits crawled on the tops of their cages when they were babies....if any. Spooky, skittish, "wilder than a coot" are behavior patterns I can deal with. Those don't really concern me.

What does concern me is outright aggression. Warnings about my intrusion into their space is alright. But, when they try to meet me at the door with "fangs-bared" that's a different type of behavior that is unacceptable and dangerous. I've witnessed this behavior passed from mother to daughter on more than one occasion. Once I see the pattern has passed to the daughter as well, that "line" is slated for elimination. I will use the doe until she's aged out, then she is culled from the herd. None of her offspring are held back for replacement stock. I've had one doe and her progeny exihibit this behavior. All are now gone from the herd.

I've based the rabbitry on three does and their sons and daughters. Nearly all of them are like large gentle puppies. Given my time constraints, they've shown a gentle manner whenever I visit their cage. Some meet me at the door with their head-down and ears-flat wanting their daily scratch...which I give them with a gentle hand. I'll pull their ears forward and scratch the nape of their neck until they are almost flat on the floor of their cage. Every once in a while, I'll give their ears a teasing tug and watch them bounce around the cage only to return to the door for another "scratch".

My bucks are worse than the does. But, I always have them well suited to me handling them and petting them on a near-daily basis. My reasons are simple. They pay me no mind when I restrain a recalcitrant doe for them. I believe if they could speak, I'd hear, "Thanks boss" from them.

Grumpy

 

[Piper]

be more than happy to hand raise the litters for you LOL I LOVE playing with the babies

I would not want a rabbit that has problems. They have the potential of stressing out easier. I need calm, go with the flow rabbits, that do not lose litters to stress. I can see culling aggressive rabbits, because they have the potential of having more problems, than just trying to bite me.
-- Like getting 50 applicants for 10 jobs. Getting 50 babies, for 10 holes, there can be a lot of weeding of applicants. I will be breeding for heat resistance, and culling heavy.
-- I have my rabbits, in my chicken coop, so that the chickens tell me when the possums come calling. Possums do not like Tabasco sauce, want me to start a thread about that? Anyway, I had a rabbit go batty, the first couple of nights it was here, and I almost culled it, just to be kind to the rabbit. It is hard seeing those rabbits that have problems like that. I would give them a bit of slack, but not for long. I do not want to be the reason that a rabbit has stress, if they can not adapt easily, I do not want that in my line.
-- Yes, I am deliberately throwing sounds and other things at my rabbits to see if they stress. This group, look at me and seem to say, "Ok, I did it, where is my carrot!". They should have easy sailing through pregnancies.
-- I may have a stricter cull policy than Grumpy...

 

[grumpy]

Here's the E-mail I sent to the breeder of those NUT-CASES!!

I don't know if your recall or not, but a friend and I came up a few months ago to buy some stock. I bought 4 (I believe) from you and 7 or 8 from the couple that brought a bunch down in the back of their truck.


I've got to be honest with you..............................that bunch I bought from your friends are-----WITHOUT QUESTION!!! THE craziest bunch of rabbits I've ever had the displeasure of keeping. SEVEN are scheduled to kindle Monday---------------THEY WON'T MAKE IT!!!


They are going to the "Snake-guy" tomorrow............at a bargain basement price!!! I put the nest boxes in with them this evening and they literally beat themselves senseless against the sides of the cages. TOTALLY INSANE!!


I've still got the three younger does I bought from you.....the young buck died unexpectedly a couple of months ago. (crap-happens)

They are a "little" spooky.....I'll wait to see how they do when I move them into their breeding pens. If they behave like the Seven I'm selling tomorrow....they'll be shipped out the next time he comes up.


####, for anyone to continue breeding this type of schizophrenic behavior in their stock is beyond acceptable animal husbandry. I don't care how well they are "put-together".....I shudder to think what type of aggressive behavior the would exhibit with a group of newborns in the nest. AND, ####, they are put together extremely well but at what sacrifice in their behavior?


I've raised meat rabbits since 1974 and I've never, EVER, seen rabbits with this degree of craziness in them.....Sorry, but I'll take my NZW does any day of the week over these lunatics! I've had some aligators in them in the past....but those old bags left in short order. Rabbits with less than a gentle, mild, temperment do not stay in my rabbitry very long.


I shudder to think of the costs and time I've invested in this group of rabbits....But, I've learned an important lesson....That is that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.

Sorry for the negative assessment of the rabbits. However, I felt compelled to be honest with you. Please pass along my sentiments to the couple that bred the 7 or 8 I bought from them. They are nuts!!

 

[-HRanchito]

Sorry to hear most of them didn't work out...

 

[ZRabbits]

Sorry to hear about the outcome of those rabbits from Iowa.

Karen