NESTING BOX DISASTER...HELP :(

[akaj9]

I had a disaster of a first litter...please help me figure all the areas I went wrong, so we don't repeat it. I posted earlier about my tunnels....I have a large pen with nesting tunels, two Does hosed together. The tunels are 12x12x24 long. Not knowing where she would deliver, put hay in all three. She moved it all into one, and kindled apparently on Saturday night. I found two healthy kits, and moved them into the nesting area she had built, cause they were further down the tunnel, just under hay. The next morning I ck'd she had packed them in 8in. deep with hay, but they appeared full bellied. I was cautious about disturbing things too much as it is her first litter and I didn't want her to freak and cannibolize the babies...1st mistake I believe. Last evening we ck'd the babies again, still snugley in the center of the 12x12 cube of hay. I reached around a little more and tucked into the back corner I found another kit, alive but wrinkled bellied. I reached around more but didn't feel anything else. 2nd mistake. I went out this morning...the babies were scattered down the tunnel, back where intially found, but they were all dead . The bottom of the box was crawling with red ants. I removed the three kits and upon cleaning out the box found three more small dead kits. Now my assumption is this...the three may have been born dead or died earlier, the ants came in for them and then ended up killing the live babies also....The only way to have known was to have removed all the hay in the box initially....searched much better and then replaced. Everything I read said that the mother won't move the babies EVER, so then why were they moved down the tunnel? Did she scatter them digging to find them? To get them away from the dead ones? I'm just not sure what took place. What are your thoughts and advise for our next go around, after hearing my story please be frank of the do's and the don't's....janine

 

[MaggieJ]

From what you say, I would assume that all the kits were born at the same time but that the doe, being inexperienced, did not put them all in the nest she made. Some may have been stillborn. It is not quite true that does never move their babies. They cannot pick them up and carry them the way a cat would with her kittens, but they will nudge or push them to a different location if there is a good reason. I suspect the doe was trying to get them away from the dead ones.

Next time, I suggest you check the whole nest tunnel and make sure all the kits are together. Remove any dead ones before the ants get attracted. It is a myth that handling the kits will result in the doe cannibalizing or abandoning the kits. Does often eat dead kits - just to clean up the nest as they do with the placental material. It's a good idea to take the doe a nice treat to distract her while you check the kits.

I like to do a complete count and check as soon as I find a new litter. I remove any dead ones and make sure the live kits are all together in the nest. If the number is lower on my next check, I know there is likely a dead kit somewhere and I will search thoroughly for it so it does not rot. This is even more important in a hot climate.

I'm sure things will go better for you next time around. We all make rookie errors, so don't beat yourself up about it.

 

[Marinea]

So sorry you lost your kits!

I have only had one litter so far, so hopefully others will chime in with their experiences. I checked my litter after it was born. I looked for dead kits, placentas and dirty nesting material. I checked the live babies, and then put them back in the nest. I added fresh hay and put the nest back like it was. After that, I checked on the babies daily. You want to make sure their bellies are full and that there are no other nasty surprises.

In your case, you are probably right. A few kits were born dead or died shortly after birth. The ants went for those and got the live ones as well. The doe may have moved the live ones away from the others, or moved them away from the ants. As to the fact that the doe completely closed up her nest, I really don't think that's a problem. She was trying to protect them. But the babies and nest should be checked completely when they're born.

Don't beat yourself up over this. We all learn. Hopefully, your next litter will go perfectly.

__________ Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:59 am __________

 

[akaj9]

Thanks....I know the tunnels are a more natural envirenment for them, but should I just go to boxes instead. I do feel bad...having made such a rookie error.... I thought I was fully prepared.....it really is a learning experience....NEXT TIME WILL BE BETTER!

 

[MaggieJ]

I love nest tunnels, but in your climate the buns might do better with open boxes with wire bottoms. The ant problem could happen with either type of nest. We had a lot of ants here one summer. I read about a non-toxic ant control method. You mix baking soda and icing sugar together in a jar and lay it on its side so it doesn't get wet. The ants eat it and it blows them up. It seemed to work pretty well.

 

[WallTenter]

She may have also been nursing and then ran out the tunnel with the ant bites - thus the kits that were holding onto her teats got scattered. It amazes me we don't have more mentally handicap bunnies as with the metal nest boxes the "clingers" just get skid off like a horseback rider on a tree. I can only imagine that if she were in there calmly feeding her babies and got bit a few times she would jump out of there, and that may have happened a few times before she finally gave up. Or she could have been trying to scratch at the ants, etc. no telling what happened.

Yes I would suggest the conventional metal nesting boxes they are easy to use and clean. I have had a kit die and get urine and feces on him from mom it was a gross mess, first time mom so I was not checking as often as I should have and he was in there for two or three days I think. Anyway I just took the healthy kits out with their fur and any still clean hay, cleaned the box and put them back in took me all of ten minutes and I did not have to destroy the doe's nest in the process. She was very curious and seemed a bit alarmed that her babies were out of the box but as soon as I put them back in she was fine.

 

[Wyldrose]

Sorry for your losses I hope you have better luck the next go around!
With any new animal that is born here I go through the nest when they are born, remove any dead and clean up the nest if there is a lot of blood etc. I do this with my mice, hamsters, asf's and rabbits.

 

[Miss M]

I'm so sorry you lost the litter! I see you're in FL, so I assume red ants = fire ants? I'm always so afraid I'm going to get fire ants in my nests!

Like everybody else said, don't beat yourself up. All of us have made newbie mistakes!

You can go ahead and rebreed your doe. Good luck with the next litter! :clover:

 

[akaj9]

Thanks guys....I believe the other two does are prego, so I hope to have a second chance in the next few weeks....I will have modified my set up by then....Do you guys use only hay, or do you ever use large horse shavings (pine)? Curious what is better?

 

[Rexisbest]

I would not use tunnels here, fire ants are an issue with nest boxes above ground too, if there is any blood they will find the babies. I bring my does inside but I am a nervous nelly and have an understanding hubby!!!

 

[akaj9]

My nesting tunnels are 3 feet off the ground, the ants still found them I'll try the baking soda trick....

 

[MamaSheepdog]

My nesting tunnels are 3 feet off the ground, the ants still found them

If they are on "legs" you can either put the base of the legs into cans filled with vegetable oil or use the sticky barrier that is sold for fruit trees to keep the ants from climbing to the nest tunnels.

I'm very sorry you lost your litter to ants. Poor little kits. (((Hugs)))

.Do you guys use only hay, or do you ever use large horse shavings (pine)?

I put a layer of pine shavings in the bottom of the box. Sometimes I also add shredded brown paper bags that I put through a document shredder. I also put grass hay and/or straw in the box. The straw is stiff, so gives the nest some structural integrity. The doe also gets plenty of straw and hay to gather and add to the nest.

I hope your next litters are successful. :clover:

 

[Rexisbest]

Those fire ants are such a pain! Hope you have more luck with next litter

 

[AnnClaire]

Ooooh, poor babies! So sorry for your loss! In another thread, I suggested that you might want to add hinges to the top of the nest tunnels for ease of checking ... this might have helped to identify the issue earlier. Sadly, we learn our lessons the hard way too often. :grouphug: