Nervous about selling mutts... (Moral issue)

[Zass]

If it makes you feel any better I've had Lilacs in the past, they have breed charateristics that are unique to them- besides just their color. Coat, head and ears, they have a certain look and size, it would not be so easy for someone to just breed your lilac does to a purebred Lilac buck and sell the offspring as pure, not to knowledgable people.

Actually the lilac colored does are 1/2 Lilac. Their mom took second place in a pasrba show where Lilacs were being sponsored. They are far too big and lanky to be mistaken for a Lilac IMO, but if bred back to a Lilac, passing their 75% lilac kits off as purebreds might be feasible. Since the local Lilac's were the ONLY breed I've run across with really pure genetics, I'd rather not do ANYTHING to encourage someone to mess that up.

 

[JessiL]

I've never sold any of my mutts so far - they've all gone straight into the pot - but if I were to hang on to some to further breeding objectives, and then want to move them on once they had served their purpose, I wouldn't hesitate to do so as long as they fit my other requirements for sale as breeding stock. Namely, they'd have to be leaving ONLY because their genes were no longer needed, and not because they were bad mothers, had a hard time conceiving or accepting the buck, etc. And I'd price them as such, just a little less than I'd sell non-showing purebred brood stock (any with show records or obvious show potential could of course price out pretty high). Plenty of people come to me for my production-oriented purebreds after their $5-10 auction purchased rabbits won't grow or breed the way they want. So I'm sure there is a market for good-quality mutts. As everyone else says, just be very honest about what you are offering, and tattoo the ears of any that might "pass" for a real breed!

 

[Zass]

Well...never mind anyway. Looks like I'll be holding onto those does.

My up-and-coming mixes must have gotten too large of a dose of silver fox genetics, because they are both failing in the motherhood department.

One only had 4 live kits, pottied in the nestbox, (Just like her SF grandmother did) and then didn't keep them covered. I have them inside, and she's nursing when I bring them out at least.

Another lost her mind at the smell of a buck and lunged at her own two week old kits today. Just like her SF aunt did last year.
I heard one squeal in pain and quickly removed the nestbox. She can have them back tomorrow when she's full of milk.


I really think idiocy can be genetic. Don't be surprised if I cull everything related to a silverfox in the place to get rid of that blood line altogether.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

I wonder what is up with that. My SF buck is super laid back and sweet. Actually he is so laid back i am considering selling him because even after no does around for months and he is only halfheartedly attempting to breed my new doe.

 

[michaels4gardens]

Just wanted to say that I'd hate to think anyone near me had a meat mutt line they'd been working on as you have with yours and then didn't offer breeding stock they didn't want to keep just for color issues because of such scruples. If there are folks near you wanting to get started raising their own meat, you could save them a lot of trouble. I can see your concern--it's ironic that some of us are wishing the sellers would give some basic information and you wishing the buyers would pay attention to what you want them to know. I wish I were near enough to take advantage of your dilemma.

I am so glad I raise "meat mutt's" all of this purebred stuff just frustrated me, -- anyone who has bred many rabbits has found out that there are a lot of other things mixed into "purebred "lines. When someone is trying to sell me a "purebred rabbit" it is not so much about rabbits as it is about that persons honesty and track record, and how long they have been working on that line., -- it is only a guess as to what has been mixed in to get the phenotype desired. The best I ever hope for ,is a honest breeder who has had the stock, and concentrated favorable traits for a dozen generations, [and not recently purchased "purebred " stock somewhere].

__________ Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:58 am __________

Well...never mind anyway. Looks like I'll be holding onto those does.

My up-and-coming mixes must have gotten too large of a dose of silver fox genetics, because they are both failing in the motherhood department.


I really think idiocy can be genetic. .

I totally agree! --temperament is genetic

 

[Zass]

I wonder what is up with that. My SF buck is super laid back and sweet. Actually he is so laid back i am considering selling him because even after no does around for months and he is only halfheartedly attempting to breed my new doe.

The BUCKS are laid back...for the most part. Some are nervous. My big buck was super sweet and knew how to breed. It was just too tempting to use him as much as possible. It's the DOES who are the problem. neurotic, and poor mothers. Mostly not aggressive, but high strung, with all the problems that come with it.

__________ Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:45 pm __________

I gave the nestbox back to the nutty doe when the popples got all frisky from hunger. She took them right back, and gave me a hug and nuzzle too.
(All high on prolactin, no doubt.)

I wonder why that line has such a strong reaction to bucks??

 

[michaels4gardens]

The best meat rabbits I have had-- all came from my own internal breeding programs, -- I was never lucky enough to buy an out cross line that was an immediate all around improvement. It seems to me, that even when the seller had great records, and performance at the farm, -- there are a lot of unseen factors that manifest in the cross with my stock, that have to be dealt with and removed , before I get to something I can be proud of. Most of the time adding an out-cross line [for genetic diversity] to my heard was a disappointment at first, either there was a problem with mothering ability,[temperament] or conformation, that had to be worked with for a while.-- I believe Zass is on the right program to create a good solid line... she will know exactly what she has .. and will have weeded out undesirable traits.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I was never lucky enough to buy an out cross line that was an immediate all around improvement. It seems to me, that even when the seller had great records, and performance at the farm, -- there are a lot of unseen factors that manifest in the cross with my stock, that have to be dealt with and removed , before I get to something I can be proud of. Most of the time adding an out-cross line [for genetic diversity] to my heard was a disappointment at first, either there was a problem with mothering ability,[temperament] or conformation, that had to be worked with for a while.

This is true with purebred lines, too. Most people cross to lines that are related, just out of another breeder's barn. In the last 6 months or so I have brought in two Rex from truly outside lines and one Satin (one of each were purchased at Convention) so I have just started on the road with crossing outside lines myself.

 

[Zass]

I believe Zass is on the right program to create a good solid line... she will know exactly what she has .. and will have weeded out undesirable traits.

A year spent on RT improved my growth rates, drastically reduced my infant mortality rates, and gave me the ability to identify, prevent, and treat more diseases in my herd than I'd previously been aware of.

And then, I was taught how to improve my animals health, temperaments, and immune systems through selective breeding and culling.

What I'm trying to say is that everyone's accumulative advice on here has been more valuable than any education I've ever PAID for!

__________ Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:37 pm __________

This one would get the mutt tattoo, too easy to mistake for a chocolate SF. Don't know if you can see it in the pic, but there is some silvering coming in.

That is, if I decide to ever sell something like that.
I have yet to offer any of these SF-mutts to anyone except another meat breeder who's been working on the project with me.

She's aware of the high strung temperament that the SF does brought with them. I'd sure hate to sell any doelings to someone else, and subject them to the same frustration the SF line does have put me through...So I've just been filling my freezer and hoping that I'll manage to stabilize their personalities.

I think the relaxed temperaments are not just genetic, but also recessive.
Which kind of makes sense, most wild-type survival traits are dominant, and fear is a survival trait to wild rabbits. It is however, NOT a survival trait in domestic rabbits.

If I breed two velveteens, I'm getting 100% kits that do not become frightened or upset easily. Breeding the Lilac doe to anything that I had, produced a lot of mellow rabbits, but not 100%. Now...My SF mutts are between 25% and 50%, and all related to that nice-tempered super-mom Lilac doe. I just need to get whatever made her so nice lined up again.

The real problem is not being able to see a doe's true character until after she's been bred.

 

[DumansArk]

The real problem is not being able to see a doe's true character until after she's been bred.

^^^^^THIS!!! This is absolutely true. Over the years I've had so many surprise temperament switches. Some grumpy/angry/aggressive types are Jekyl/Hyde and leave with the hormones, others STAY nasty once they mature, but why keep either type when the rest can be so mellow and sweet when bred, nursing, or open?
It's one reason I strongly oppose the idea of constantly bringing new rabbits for new bloodlines. (The way I was taught before I found RT)
It is just an exercise in sorting out the crazy. And the damaged.

 

[Zass]

It is just an exercise in sorting out the crazy. And the damaged.

You said it perfectly right there.

I'm SO tired of bringing in new rabbits, growing them out, and terminally culling before they ever reach breeding age.

It's expensive.

The myth that moody does have "better instincts" really isn't doing rabbits or rabbit raisers any favors. I've seen too many mellow does get everything right the first time to believe a line like that..

 

[michaels4gardens]

something else I have noticed is -- that crazy does housed next to normally good ones can effect the "good doe's" behavior . I learned to house crazy does away from other does as much as possible. and once it is determined that they are not going to be a keeper, or are acting "crazy", I move them [and litter] to the quarantine area, so their insanity does not rub off on good does.

 

[EnglishSpot]

1 Corinthians 15:33 "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits." LOL Applies to rabbits also, it seems!!

 

[Zass]

Here's the doe who went batty other day.

She's back to normal now... Likes a good bit of pressure with her petting.



And then a bunny flop , must have been a good petting?




I probably won't condemn this one quite yet. Her behavior IS still a big improvement on the silver fox behavior.
One more chance for her, since it was only her "first strike". Everything else about her performance had been perfect up to that point.

I'm so used to bombproof rabbits that I might overreact a bit when one surprises me.
For example, Mucky, who I swear, waits for me to be around before she nurses or gives birth.
You know, the things most does prefer to keep PRIVATE? Mucky always chooses the busiest times of day.

I was standing in her pen with her for that one :roll:

OK...so I'm spoiled.

Maybe Feather would have realized her mistake when the kit squealed? I didn't give her a chance to, but I didn't find a wound on any of them. Perhaps there was an animal around the rabbitry that night and she was extra on edge for some reason?

Or maybe I'm looking for excuses because she's out of Pancake.
ancake:

If she never ever does it again I'll pass it off as a fluke.
I guess I'll see how she acts with a buck next time I try to breed her...


Now, the one who pottied the box and won't pull more hair to cover her kits is a gonner.

__________ Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:53 pm __________

This is the one that didn't make the cut. She's so pretty, but she was born here, and I've always known she wasn't psychologically sound. I'd hoped my intuition was wrong. She never did get accustomed to handling, no matter how much I worked with her. Never a bite or growl from her, but she still jumps away too quick when I open the cage door, or go to lay a hand on her.
See her look of unease at being targeted by a camera that is familiar and largely ignored by the rest of the rabbitry?

 

[JenerationX]

The batty doe is pretty! Hopefully it was just a fluke. I'm glad to see some folks culling for bad temperament. I know firsthand from horses that bad attitudes can be genetic. Unfortunately people in the horse show world will breed anything that performs well.. whether or not it's cooperative in the stable.