Need help with Lionhead colors

[shumes]

Hi everyone!

It has been so long since I posted on here since we took a break from raising rabbits for a while. I have a litter of Lionheads that I'm a bit puzzled with. Our past Lionheads produced mostly Chestnut, Blues, Blacks, etc so figuring out colors was simple as can be. This litter is tort based and I can't for the life of me find similar photos anywhere!

The mom is a Lilac Tort and the father is a Harlequin. I can give more information on their pedigrees if that helps.I have a guess as to what they are but I'd love to hear your opinions. The longer hair and saddles of LHs sure makes it more difficult.

Thank you!
Savannah

*ignore the colors next to their names, that's just for my own ID *

Female #1 Photo is spot on with how she looks in person. The dark is very blue.


Female #2 (brown)


Boy #1 (blank)




Boy #2



Boy #3 (pink)




Boy #4 (orange)

 

[Dood]

Please post a picture of the mom and especially the father and supply their colours in their ancestry. I don't see any harlequin markings at all and would expect some.

I believe they are mostly black torts of varying shades and boy 3 looks like a blue tort, maybe lilac. If any of the others had a chocolate looking eye colour I might say there is a chocolate tort - possibly boy 4

 

[shumes]

Please post a picture of the mom and especially the father and supply their colours in their ancestry. I don't see any harlequin markings at all and would expect some.

I believe they are mostly black torts of varying shades and boy 3 looks like a blue tort, maybe lilac. If any of the others had a chocolate looking eye colour I might say there is a chocolate tort - possibly boy 4

Black torts very dark brown/black markings though don't they? Every one of these babies (except for boy #2 and girl #1) is blue/lilac tinted. There are variances in their saddle colors but none of them have any black tort markings.

Here is mom:


And dad:


I'll have their pedigrees up in a sec. Have to get them out of the binder.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:52 pm __________<br /><br />I can't scan in the pedigrees but here is the jist of the color on each side.

Mom (Lilac Tort): Tricolor, Seal, Broken Lilac, Black, Broken Golden Fawn, Seal, Chocolate, Tricolor, Black, Broken Chocolate, Tort, Broken Tort, Blue, Black Tort.

Dad (Harlequin): http://lionhead.stagedragon.com/pedigre ... aretto.htm < from the owner's website

 

[Dood]

Your buck is not a harlequin, he is a tort.

Harlequin is an incompletely dominant trait and is completely dominant in torts, it cannot hide in the rabbits genetic history and he does not have harlequins in his parentage.

I now believe boy 3 is a sable point, he is rather dark do he may have gotten two shaded genes as it is found in both parents history.

 

[shumes]

Your buck is not a harlequin, he is a tort.

Harlequin is an incompletely dominant trait and is completely dominant in torts, it cannot hide in the rabbits genetic history and he does not have harlequins in his parentage.

I now believe boy 3 is a sable point, he is rather dark do he may have gotten two shaded genes as it is found in both parents history.

I was thinking he was a black tort. He isn't my buck and I've never seen him in person. I purchased the doe already bred by him.

As for the sable point, none of these rabbits look at all like sable points to me.

http://www.cimmarononline.com/Cimmaron% ... 20%20r.jpg

^ Every sable point LH I've seen looks just like that.

 

[Dood]

If you look at the pictures on the stage dragon lionhead sit you will see that black torts look just like your kits. Eye colour in kits is a very good indicator of chocolate, blue or lilac genes (the same is true with shaded and chinchilla) Once the rabbits age their eye colour can change. None of your kits looks like they have a chocolate or lilac eye, except for boy 3 who is shaded.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:13 pm __________<br /><br />Shaded colours can change radically from birth to adult

 

[shumes]

If you look at the pictures on the stage dragon lionhead sit you will see that black torts look just like your kits. Eye colour in kits is a very good indicator of chocolate, blue or lilac genes (the same is true with shaded and chinchilla) Once the rabbits age their eye colour can change. None of your kits looks like they have a chocolate or lilac eye, except for boy 3 who is shaded.

__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:13 pm __________

Shaded colours can change radically from birth to adult

I'm not trying to be argumentative but based on the black tort Lionheads I've seen, these babies do not look like them lol Here are some black tort babies closer to the age of mine.

http://www.circuslionsrabbitry.com/phot ... es/015.JPG

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/m ... 0_2881.jpg

Again, the shaded points on these babies are closer to blue than anything else. Can you find me a photo of a black tort that replicates that?

Also, maybe it's your computer changing the eye color, but all these babies (except for the dark tort) have blue-grey eyes. The dark female is the only one with brown eyes.

So I'm thinking maybe Female #1 is a black tort and the others are blue torts since they don't have a ruby cast?

__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:24 pm __________

I'm still not sure on the light male. He looks like a smoke pearl to me but I'm not sure. Would that genetically match his lineage?<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:30 pm __________<br /><br />I'm tempted to hold back all the babies for a while and see how their color develops. It's incredible how much they can change as they age and moult.

 

[Dood]

If you say the eyes are greyish in person then they could be blue torts.

I still think boy 3 is sable point or possibly sallander, blue or lilac torts are not that light as kits. I looked at his grand mother and believe she is a token sallander and not broken sable point so his mom may carry this gene.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:38 pm __________<br /><br />Smoke pearl is not possible since neither parent has the full extension gene.

 

[Bad Habit]

The lighter boy doesn't look anything like the sable points I've gotten.

 

[shumes]

Wait, Dood, you're talking about Boy #2 the 3rd rabbit pictured. Not Boy #3 right? lol This whole time I thought you were referring to Boy #3.

__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:51 pm __________

Here is a sable point marten LH. Very similar to my light boy, but again, the light male has blue points/shading, not sable.

http://www.freewebs.com/northeastlionhe ... 101807.jpg

__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:52 pm __________

Maybe he's a blue point LH?<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:02 pm __________<br /><br />Here are some eye photos:

Mom-


Light boy- He is definitely not sable but blue



Tort babies-



Dark tort female- Obviously brown


The possible blue tort babies have similar eyes to mom but not as light.

 

[Dood]

Shaded rabbits - seal, siamese sable, sable point - all come in black, chocolate, blue and lilac so he could be a blue sable point.

The side by side pictures do show that some kits are obviously lighter, so they could be blue torts

 

[shumes]

Shaded rabbits - seal, siamese sable, sable point - all come in black, chocolate, blue and lilac so he could be a blue sable point.

The side by side pictures do show that some kits are obviously lighter, so they could be blue torts

From what I read blue points are a dilute like blues are a dilute of black. So (if he is one) he would be a blue point, not a blue sable point. I think that would be the equivalent of referring to a blue himi as a blue black himi.

There are lilac points, blue points, chocolate points and sable points. Then there are Siamese Sables and Chocolate Sables.

 

[Dood]

It's not the same but I am not getting into semantics about the confusing and often ridiculous names chosen for the different rabbit breeds.

If you understand the genotype letter codes then we can talk.

 

[shumes]

Dood, I wasn't trying to upset you. I'm certainly not experienced with rabbit genetics but I haven't heard of blue points referred to as blue sable points on any genetic/color guide websites I've looked at.

As for genotype letter codes I found this:

Sable point: aaB_c(chl)_D_ee

Blue point: aaB_c(chl)_ddee

Again, wasn't trying to upset you or argue. If you could explain why you disagree with what I said about blue points, I would sincerely enjoy hearing it as I'm still learning.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:19 pm __________<br /><br />Based on this website, http://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-co ... aded.shtml, it seems to me that a sable point is a cream animal with sable-colored points. The siamese sable is a siamese animal with sable points. A chocolate sable is a chocolate animal with sable points. The body color differs but the "points" remain sable. Which would be why chocolate pointed and chocolate sable are two different types.

Now the blue point is not a blue animal with sable points, it is like the original sable point: a cream animal with blue points. Genetically the blue point is the same as the sable point except it is blue rather than sable. Same goes for chocolate point and lilac pointed.

 

[Dood]

Names are not reliable.

Not allowed, as far as I know: amber/cinnamon isn't allowed, blue/choc/lilac (BCL) seal is the only seal allowed, sable, smoke pearl point, BCL chinchilla, BCL tortoise, fawn, and choc and lilac himi.

I have a Blue Point Himilayan, Black point Himilayan, a Smoke, and a Sable Point- all does!

There are many other examples of confusion on this forum from using the names but few can read the genotype.

Sable blue point and blue point and smoke pearl point can be genetically all the same depending on rabbit breed and the common terms in your country or district or they can mean completely different things.

Sable point is a description of the effect and pattern of the genotype - aa __ cchl_ __ ee and they can be black, chocolate, blue or lilac.