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ollitos

ollitos

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We have friends turning down rabbit meat contracts because they can't produce enough. We want to fill that gap. We already have contacts with two grocery stores and a farmer's market but we need to be sure we can produce enough kits. This year has been about dealing with the learning curve, figuring out what works best for us, finding all the resources we need and seeing if this is really something we want to turn into a somewhat commercial (ad)venture.

So. If we want to be able to butcher 50 rabbits a week, how many does do we need? We breed back at one week after kindling and expect the average litter size to be 8 kits. That takes into consideration 10% mortality as well as larger litters of 10+. I figured 8 would be a good average size but please chime in if you think that's too high/low. We will breed through the summer as best we can but recognize that there will be a much lower pregnancy rate during this time. We will breed throughout the winter. Our rabbits come to weight at around 12 weeks.

How many does do we need? My dad says 24. Greg thinks closer to 30. I say closer to 40.

This is your high school SAT worst nightmare. LOL


If each litter is 8 and we need 50 rabbits a week, that means we'd need to give birth to 6.25 litters/week (50/8) so we'll round that up to 7 litters a week.

It will be approximately 6 weeks before these does can kindle again (31 days gestation + 1 week before breeding back). So during those 6 weeks I need 7 litters/week, right? 6x7 is 42, the number of does I'll need.

My dad worked the equation a totally different way. He said if ... ah well crap. He gave me a spreadsheet and explained it but it all fell out of my brain already. Crud.




Help? Anyone? Bueller? :shock: :x
 
Fifty fryers per week=2600 per year. A good doe should produce 60-70 kits per year. Figure a loss of 10% overall. A breed-back of 11 days will give you about 10 litters per year. Again, you must figure a certain percentage for missed conceptions.....Palpating becomes extremely critical when working towards these kinds of numbers.

In a perfect world: 40 top producing does "might" fill the bill. Again, figure 10% above that number. 44 does to 50 does would come very close if you didn't stub your toe. You'll need extra bucks to breed more does to sync with your projected requirements. Grow out cages shoud be two per doe, minimum. You'll need extra cages for replacement does that will fill in for does that cannot keep up with the accelerated breeding schedule.

11 does kindling per week will give you a few added kits above what you need. But, those may well be needed to fill the 50 head per week goal you set for yourself.

Go as "automatic" as you possibly can. You'll save time and money in the long run if you do. A well insulated building with good ventilation is a must. good luck.

grumpy.
 
I was so hoping you'd offer some input Grumpy! Thank you!

We plan to keep it all pasture-raised. That in of itself raises a lot of issues... misters will be a must but out in the middle of a pasture? There's no way I can haul ice bottles to all those pens, let alone have enough freezer space to make all that ice! Keeping the waterers and tubing from freezing in the winter is something we're already trying to figure out. I'm not particularly concerned about the kits staying warm enough but I need to have a plan in place for that possibility as well.
 
karen:

You're in an area....I've never had any experience with. I wouldn't know the first thing about setting up something such as you've suggested. It would definately be interesting and most certainly a challenge.

grumpy.
 
ollitos":28mibk20 said:
so hoping you'd offer some input Grumpy! Thank you!

We plan to keep it all pasture-raised. That in of itself raises a lot of issues... misters will be a must but out in the middle of a pasture? There's no way I can haul ice bottles to all those pens, let alone have enough freezer space to make all that ice! Keeping the waterers and tubing from freezing in the winter is something we're already trying to figure out.
Click to expand...
have you done the math on how much pasture each rabbit will need? Do you have enough pasture to make that type of commitment?
 
- I am going to try some math, but one other thing to consider is predators. I suspect you could have up to 5 does and their litters, wiped out at once. Do you have coyotes, owls, eagles, wolves, wild dogs, wild pigs, possums, raccoon, mountain lions and even rats would consider bunnies as a meal.
- How many of those acres can you use, considering your predators? Can you use solar energy to keep a hot wire around each pen? * and or * Have you considered several LGDs?
- If you were to have to move, them to a different spot, daily - plus check their condition and water them, it will take a lot of time, do your have the time?
- Have you considered sprouting their feed, from organic seed, so they can stay in the outside pens, but not eat it completely down, where you would have to move them to new pasture far from the house?
 
I'm confused. How do you breed back one week after KINDLING? I thought weaning was 6-8 weeks, and most of the old tracts say breed 2-3 weeks after kindling, so isn't that cutting it very close? Seems you'd lose as many kits from low nutrition as you'd gain from the extra week. Also, 8 seems a high "average", most vet sites say 6 (and they are trying to discourage breeding). If we make it easy, and lowball the litter size average to 5, rather than try to "guess" the effect numerically of predators, but just do your best to keep them away, that's 10 does kindling every week. You can acquire the does weekly too, rather than all at once. Let's say you wait 2 weeks after kindling to rebreed, that's 6.5 x 10, or 65 does. Still more than an acre per doe, and the medieval warreners in England didn't add any feed other than what was planted on the top of the burrows. Check out this link, there's info about how to lay out warrens. http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/rabb_warr.htm

If you estimate on the high side, and get extra big litters, it's more money - MAYBE. On the other hand, the more does you buy, the more up front expenses you have. Also, supply and demand affects price of your commodity - if you meet the MAXIMUM demand, will the price fall? It may be in your best interest not to shoot for 50 carcasses per week, but rather shoot for fewer until you see if the demand builds. But I have never done this "for real", just extrapolating from other life experiences.
 
dragonladyleanne":35bfixg2 said:
I'm confused. How do you breed back one week after KINDLING? I thought weaning was 6-8 weeks, and most of the old tracts say breed 2-3 weeks after kindling, so isn't that cutting it very close? Seems you'd lose as many kits from low nutrition as you'd gain from the extra week. Also, 8 seems a high "average", most vet sites say 6 (and they are trying to discourage breeding).
Click to expand...


I've bred back immediately after kindling and weaned at three weeks, I'd done it at 10 days, 14 days, 21, days. I usually wean meat kits at 4 weeks, show kits at 6 and hollands at 8weeks. The doe is very receptive the closer you are to the actually kindling date, and I have found the litters are bigger, and there is research for that as well. My Rexes have an average of 8-12 kits every time, except one. She only has six, but she breeds back quickly, still I might cull her. If a doe had 5-6 kits, I would thing something is wrong with her. Fava just had six, but she also had 12 the last time and she is recovering from a nightmare summer. I lost several kits this summer, litters were 11, and 12, but usually I would not have lost more than one kit, if any. The last three litters of 9, 11 and 12, in Feb, March and April I lost only one kit total, not one kit from each litter, but just one kit.

Most vets sites are wrong and have no idea how to run a commercial breeding operation with commercial type rabbits, that have large litters. You should try looking up some of the research on commercial meat operations, and they will emphatically site that if a doe does not meet the 14 day breed back schedule, she should be culled.

__________ Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:48 am __________

http://www.poultry.msstate.edu/extensio ... uction.pdf

From the Purina website

http://www.rabbitchow.com/technologyres ... 24648.aspx<br /><br />__________ Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:54 am __________<br /><br />What really got me thinking is the Feb litter, where the doe died when the kits were three weeks. I had no where to foster 11 kits to, so I just took care of them as best as I could, gave then pellets and hay, nothing extra or special. I did not lose one kit from that litter.
Then I have kits that were with their dam till 8 weeks, die of enteritis, or even die while still with their dam. Seems linked to the lines more than early weaning in my case.
 
Piper":9edc3m8q said:
- If you were to have to move them to a different spot, daily - plus check their condition and water them, it will take a lot of time, do your have the time?
Click to expand...

This is a very good point to consider, especially with your back problems.

I assume you are marketing your rabbits as pasture-raised? How about tweaking that a bit to "Finished on Pasture"? You could keep your does in wire cages in a central location with an automatic watering system, and have multiple fenced pastures for the weaned kits to finish in. These could be planted with grass, clover, dandelion, plantain, Shepherd's purse, etc. With several "extra" pastures, they could be managed with rotational grazing so they can recover between use. It is my understanding that young rabbits do not burrow, so you wouldn't have to worry about wire on the ground of the pastures. Each pasture could have several simple shelters to provide shade and cover from airborne predators. You could run an electric wire top and bottom to discourage predators from digging under or climbing over the fencing.

Do you have a plan in place to manage coccidia? I saw a medicated goat feed at TSC yesterday- of course it defeats the purpose of "organic free range rabbit" but at some point I can almost guarantee that you are going to have an outbreak and need to medicate.

Good luck! I wish I had access to such a market! :)
 
We don't feed organic or "all natural" currently because it's outrageously priced. Putting the growout pens only on pasture would work probably but we don't have a facility that we could convert into a rabbitry big enough to hold 40-50 does, plus bucks.

Greg moves the pens, not me. He also carries the water to fill the water buckets. I don't do any of the heavy lifting.

We want to keep the rabbits in the pasture to help rebuild our pastures as well as provide a grass-fed product. It's part of our farm's philosophy.

The kits do dig. We had some escape the other day. I love watching Greg chase runaway bunnies and chickens. He also had an escape pig the other day. I laughed and laughed. He wasn't as amused. LOL

The rabbits are moved about 3-4 feet a day. We have LOTS of open pasture. We mob graze our cattle and the rabbits would follow the cattle weeks after they have moved to new pastures. The cattle eat down the tall grass, then we'll hopefully have chickens follow to sanitize the pasture, then slowly move the rabbits through.

Our goal of 50 processed rabbits a week would enable Greg to farm full time which has been our goal for a couple years.

As for meeting demand, we'd of course include language in our contracts that we are not responsible for acts of God, predators or illness but would do our best to meet the agreed upon quantity for each customer. I don't plan on signing contracts that take us to the maximum of what we can produce. I don't plan on producing 50 rabbits a week for one or two customers. There are plenty of restaurants who want locally raised rabbit. Not to mention two grocery chains I am starting discussions with. One farmer friend turned down a contract for 30 rabbits a month. Another turned down a contract for 10 rabbits a week. I want those contracts. I want our rabbit in local small scale markets, restaurants, organic groceries, co-ops, and even selling at farmer's markets ourselves. All of it is doable if we have the product.

I've been trying to get an LGD for over a year. Our circumstances are such that it's not feasible right now. But it's definitely a need especially if we go big like this.

Coccidia.. no. I need to spend time over the next month or so educating myself on rabbit diseases and treatments. So far, knock on wood, we've only had one ill rabbit (sweet, magic Big Bertha) who had an injury, not an illness. We have been very fortunate. But I'd rather be prepared than caught off guard.

I would like to breed back sooner than one week but I want to give myself that one week of cushion and it also gives the does a bit of a rest between litters. Vets are dealing with domestic pets, not commercial production nor are they taking into consideration how rabbits behave in the wild. Nondomesticated rabbits rebreed within a day of kindling. That's nature. That's what they are designed to do. Not all rabbits can handle that. For a commercial enterprise, I have to cull ruthlessly. Does will be rotated out of production to give them time to rest after a certain number of litters, but does consistently producing less than 8 kits per litter and not thriving on the breedback schedule will be culled. Our meat does have never produced less than 9 kits in a litter. We breed to increase the litter size and, for me, 10 would be optimal. Pet rabbits, show rabbits, fiber rabbits... that's a different story and since I don't have an experience with them, I can't tell you what their breeding schedule and litter size goals would be. I just know that for our meat production, this is what we need and it's entirely doable.


I think that answers most of the questions.
 
I wish we lived in a more lush environment. I believe here it is something like 100 acres to sustain one cow. Your system sounds like a sound one. Good luck! :D
 
Wow! I thought I *had* done my research, but I see now the problem is the sheer volume of information out there, and determining what of it is valid and what is questionable. The "average litter size" of 6 was probably based partly on the breeds I was researching (Argents) and that a lot of my literature was from the forgottenbooks website, as I was wanting to raise rabbits on what I grow, as much as possible. In talking to my dog and cat vets, they admitted they knew very little about rabbits, even as pets, but knew of ONE vet in this area who split his time between central Pensacola (about 5 miles from my house) and Gulf Breeze (next county over). Taking one animal TO him would not be a problem, but when I asked about "housecalls", I got the "ok, you just went from the crazy cat lady to the insane rabbit woman" look! :bounce: Most of the modern stuff I found on the net was way too pet-centered, basically saying "spay and neuter"! They did NOT talk about average litter size.

I got all excited when I read that youngsters don't dig, and then you hadda go and say yes they do! I have just enough of a plot of shady ground beyond the rabbit hutches to make ONE of those medieval style pillow mounds, but at the moment it is merely well enough fenced to keep in adult rabbits. Guess I still have to build the "moat".

Anyway, it sounds like you already have most of your plans thought through, so good luck!

40-50 does . . . and here I am almost overwhelmed by 4! :bunnyhop: :bunnyhop: :bunnyhop: :bunnyhop:
 
dragonladyleanne":35on1ofx said:
I got all excited when I read that youngsters don't dig[...]
Click to expand...

My little 2 week kits are determined to dig their way through the cardboard liner in the nestbox. Fortunately their little baby nails are too soft to actually manage it...so far!
 
All of this is assuming one thing--that the customers who frequent the markets and retailers you're counting upon actually buy rabbit meat. 30 years ago, it wasn't at all uncommon, much the same as seeing backyards with hutches full of rabbits which the residents raised to supplement their diets, but we're in an era which views rabbits less as a meat animal and more as cute, cuddly, friendly, and non-edible.

Imagine for a moment that you set yourself up for 50-60 producing does. You go to all the trouble of breeding those does in cycles, but suddenly within that cycle, AFTER does are bred, the orders from the stores and markets suddenly slow down or stop altogether. Then what? The income from those sales you've become dependent upon to sustain your operation suddenly stops as well.

What I am telling you is that many people get into a commercial operation under the disguise of thinking that they're going to be rolling in the dough, only to lose their anuses when the realities of the world we live in sets in and they have to deal with the perceptions of a public which is increasingly less in favor of eating certain animals. Unfortunately for us, rabbits are on that list.
 
There is risk in every business venture. That's why we have other animals - chickens for eggs and meat, cattle, pigs and now rabbits and turkeys next year. If the bottom suddenly fell out, we'd sell off all our stock and get out of the business. But we'll never get anywhere if we're not willing to take risks.
 
ollitos":211cz1qu said:
There is risk in every business venture. That's why we have other animals - chickens for eggs and meat, cattle, pigs and now rabbits and turkeys next year. If the bottom suddenly fell out, we'd sell off all our stock and get out of the business. But we'll never get anywhere if we're not willing to take risks.
Click to expand...

That much is true, but in the entire conversation which ensued over how to set up and run the operation, nothing was ever said of the risks involved, while many assumptions were made based solely upon what your clients were asking for. What those clients ultimately depend upon are sales, and those sales hinge upon what their customers are willing to buy. You can look at many different operations which once existed around this country and now are no longer in business as your case models. Another business (Pel-Freez) exists in a town where it is rather difficult to even find their own products sold short of going to a local butcher shop and buying it frozen. That business exists here in Arkansas, yet most people around this state have never heard of such a thing. Most supermarkets don't even sell rabbit meat, which means we're going to have to go out of our collective ways to promote it for any processing business to ever survive. The market is just like that.

Another big part of our problem is that our breeders have promoted the heck out of smaller breeds, and many people now see rabbits as pets and consider their consumption to be along the same lines of eating cats or dogs. Fair or not, it is what it is.
 
Nothing was said about the risks because that wasn't what I was looking for. I was asking for help calculating how many does I would need to meet a goal of 50 processed rabbits a week. For what it's worth, 50 is a random number that we came up with as a goal. I could have said 72 or 13. Regardless of the number, I needed help understanding how to extrapolate the number of does I would need. I felt that my father's calculations were way off base and I wanted some help from those with experience and stronger math skills than my own.

I truly appreciate all the additional input and queries. I don't claim to be a savant or have all the answers and definitely feel that there's much to be learned from other people's experience. But what I am reading is that you feel that I've chosen to do this on a whim where there is no market for my product but plan to go blindly forward anyways. I know there is a market for rabbit meat in my area. I know how to find those markets. I may end up with a handful of customers who only want 6 rabbits a week (like our current restaurant customer) but if I can find 10 restaurants who want 6 rabbits a week, which I already have, then look at where I am.
 

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