My Hopping Mad Thrianta Problem

[Jack]

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/angorarabb ... Wgene.html

The W series is known as the wide banding series, it widens the intermediary color in the coat. There really has very little research with how this gene actually works and operates. Depending upon what coat pattern it is combined with, the gene produces different effects. When combined with the agouti pattern, the intermediary band is widened. This give the rabbit a sandy coloration that somewhat looks like the orange, fawn and cream of the ee gene. The underbelly and other agouti markings will be filled in, there will also be some ticking on the surface of the coat. The tan patten gene combined with the ww gene will produce the dark red-range color in the Tan rabbit breed.

So, according to this, there are two ways to get reds, but with the Agouti you can get ticking, which would explain some of the differences that you run into with Thriantas, So if you have a line developed out of straight Agoutis you can get ticking, usually white, but with the tan, I think you can run into a similar problem cut with black instead. It actually kinda makes sense.

 

[PulpFaction]

I don't understand? Are you thinking about outcrossing?

Really, it should be simple: Breed to a Thrianta with good color and select for it! LOL

Just kidding, I know you know that. Which is why I'm confused by this topic. On the darkest rabbits with the best color, you will see dark agouti ticking on the ears, mostly, at certain phases. There are photos around that show these agouti phase Thriantas in the Netherlands, I can only assume those rabbits came about in efforts to improve color.

 

[Jack]

No, go back to the breed development, the red is out of agouti and tan pattern rabbits, so you have two different patterns of red on the rabbits, like the great wrap, but eye/vents that you can never get to color. I was pointing out, that if the agouti pattern is what made you red, then you are going to have the white ticking, but then I think you can get the black ticking out of the tan pattern.

 

[PulpFaction]

I've never seen white ticking in an agouti rabbit, if that's what you're referring to, except in the brown Silvers. The "ticking" I had trouble with on the rabbit that was related to your buck was white hairs, not simply white tipped.

A lack of wide band extension could cause both light under coat and black/dark tips on the hairs. OR, just one or the other.

Hmm. I guess I'm still not following. the Tan pattern is responsible for the wide band extension, but I do not think it has anything to do with ticking or anything like that. Ticking could only reasonable come from agouti influence, from what I can tell.


AH! I think I get what you're saying when you say "two ways to get red". Like the fawn/red color with the light under belly that you see in Satins, or the true red with full wrap like we see in the Thriantas. Thriantas are agouti base with the W gene from Tans added for the full extension and wrap. It's both together, not either or. Is that what you mean?

 

[eco2pia]

Now I am curious about this too, because I was thinking there was just one way to get red--(ee) non-extension. Then DevonW pointed out the (ww) wideband, is what gives you the full wrap? I have NZRed though, and we difininately see cream bellies, not a full wrap. On the darkest rabbits I have seen, there is smut--that black ticking...Never seen a NZR that had a full wrap of red in person...though I seem to have seen pictures? I am sorely confused. :?

 

[PulpFaction]

I haven't seen many NZR with a decent dark red color, most would be closer to a fawn, like in Flemish. None had the full wrap, even though I BELIEVE the standard calls for it?

Thriantas are either black based agouti or chocolate based agouti with the full extension and wideband added. The black-based agouti will make for a darker red color, but also opens the doors for smut. The Chocolate based agouti can create a rich color, but it will be more like an orange than a red...but there's less risk for the smut to show.

Essentially, for the ideal full wrap deep red you need both ee and ww. I'm not sure where white ticking originally referenced comes into play. It's not really a symptom of a fault with either gene, to the best of my understanding.

 

[Jack]

The red is both, you have to have the ee and the ww, so a non extended, wide-band is a red, as it wipes the skin/first band, and extends the red to the entire hair shaft
what I'm talking about is that because tan is a variation of agouti, you can get reds out of tan, which is something that was used to develop the Thrianta, and that would give you a slight pattern/wrap difference. But in a Thrianta, that is all it takes to win.

 

[eco2pia]

I haven't seen many NZR with a decent dark red color, most would be closer to a fawn, like in Flemish. None had the full wrap, even though I BELIEVE the standard calls for it?

Thriantas are either black based agouti or chocolate based agouti with the full extension and wideband added. The black-based agouti will make for a darker red color, but also opens the doors for smut. The Chocolate based agouti can create a rich color, but it will be more like an orange than a red...but there's less risk for the smut to show.

Essentially, for the ideal full wrap deep red you need both ee and ww. I'm not sure where white ticking originally referenced comes into play. It's not really a symptom of a fault with either gene, to the best of my understanding.

Yep, the standard calls for it, and nope, I have never seen one, not that I have been doing this long. I have seen the black based vs. brown based agouti though. I have seen some pretty dark NZR, copper penny dark, orangey, maybe like a chestnut horse. But not really clear red-red like the Thriantas, or an Irish Setter....

 

[Jack]

And, you can be based off a straight A_ agouti or a At (tan) agouti
that's where this came from, because with the tan, you don't have the risk of white ticking.

 

[PulpFaction]

I think what I'm saying is that none of the normal combinations of genes in Thriantas (or any red rabbit) should open the door for white ticking.

 

[Jack]

Yeah, what they said was that with the straight agouti, some of the agouti ticking can show through.
which makes sense, as otherwise, where does it come from?

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

I think that tans were used for the addition of the wideband gene only. The non extension is also affected by modifiers, which is why some reds are smutty. A tan is a wideband otter. Wideband eliminates the white eye circles and belly etc. it also eliminates for the most part smutt. If a thrianta has smutt then something is wrong. As for the NZR's I have only seen simple non extension and no wideband,so I am not sure as to what their standard calls for. So from the sounds of things, Thriantas sometimes throw a Tan in their litters?

 

[PulpFaction]

Devon, I haven't talked to everyone that's ever had a Thrianta litter, but I have NEVER heard of a Tan popping up in one.

 

[Jack]

Uh, no, can't, you would have to loose the ee,ww for the tan pattern to show through (unless you are talking the wrap)
and then it wouldn't be a Thrianta.....

 

[RedEftFarm]

Hi! I'm new on the forum but I have satin angora crosses and have wideband and rufus floating in my herd. Here is a link to Jan's Giants blog http://jansgiants.blogspot.com/2005/08/ ... tters.html. She has pictures showing how to tell if a full extention agouti or tan pattern rabbit has wideband so that would be agouti, chin, otter and marten. Wideband and Rufus are separate so you can have a fawn with wideband but because it doesn't have Rufus you can't see the pattern. Wide band just modifies the pattern making the silver ticking on a marten and the belly marking go higher up on the body and removes the under color on the belly of agouti and tan pattern based colors as well as widening the agouti middle band and reducing smut. I don't think wide band really makes a rabbit darker but making reds is really complicated and I don't know much about that. There was a really good discussion on the rabbit genetics yahoo group two or three years ago about making reds and about thriantas and red new zealnds. It might be worthwhile to join up just to search the archive. It turns out that the country of origin for thriantas includes a genotype for each color/breed and the official color for them is a(t)a(t)bbCCDDeeww+rufus which is a non extention chocolate tan with wideband and Rufus. But each breeder used the genes that worked best for them which is why so many are agouti based but some of them should be tan pattern based. You can't really tell the difference between the two unless you test breed. So there really are two different ways to make red. Here in the US we tend to think that red can only be made on agouti but those European breeders know a lot about breeding colors.
I don't think the two would have different colored ticking/smut because a non extention otter without wideband looks just like a tort with tan pattern marks. The smut/ticking goes from fawn with a little ticking to the tort otter with more and tort with the most shading. You can breed out the smut on a fawn and apparently on the tort otter too. Tort otter is another name for non extention otter. I have had a red mini Rex and a harli fuzzy lop with creamy colored ticking. When I crossed them I got a normal fur harli with pronounced cream ticking. She had a rich orange under color with very pale outer coat. Is that what you are talking about?
Sorry to be so long winded but I hope it helps a bit. Tracy (-:

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

So if you test breed a Thrianta to a self chocolate you should get all chocolate tans (officially) What I thought, just didn't know if the red was black or chocolate based, thanks RedEftFarm!!!

 

[Jack]

Ok, so a trianta bred to a broken black MR, produced 2 blacks that devolved red ticking, much like a silver... a white and orange (broken orange??) and a tri-color (splotches NOT Harli)

and if you look there are reds with a 'whole' wrap, and very little eye circles, and those with very light eye circles.

 

[RedEftFarm]

Sorry, I haven't kept up with the thread. I had a busy week. Black with red ticking sounds like it could be golden steel. The rufus from the thrianta would make the gold ticking red. If it is steel then your mini Rex is probably a hidden steel. The thrianta can't carry steel because non extention colors are recessive to steel. If a fawn, red, tort, pearl, ermine, sable point etc had a steel gene it would be steel looking or self or maybe agouti looking. The broken red kit means your mr carries non extention so is probably E(s)e if the kits are steel. The tricolor might be a broken tort or if it is harli your mr could be E(s)ej which can also produce a self looking rabbit. You may have learned more about your mr than your thrianta with this breeding. Good luck, Tracy