My black kit isn't... UPDATED new pics. more steels?

[TF3]

My 2 week old kits appeared black at birth... 6 are chestnut.
3 with harlequin from mom... That shows a little on the bodies and clearly on their bellies.


3 straight up agouti.
But there is a real difference in a few of them, just different shades of chestnut?


And then there is the sole black kit who is becoming something else...
Not agouti (black all over), it is a chin?
(Sire is light grey FG/ dam is fawn FG cross with an ej)


Trying to nail down a little more on the parents genotype!

 

[Zass]

That last kit is a steel.
(chinchilla kits have white inside the ears just like chestnuts)
I know Clover can't carry steel, since she already has less dominant genes expressed on the same locus... but neither can a light gray. Can I see your buck again (Bigwig?) for conformation?

I've determined that chinchillas can hide steel better than agouti's can. The more subtle markings on his feet, belly, and underside of tail might be your only give aways. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:42 pm __________ <br /><br /> Here is a thread with a sneaky silver tipped blue steel.
A_ B_ Cchd_ dd Es_

colors-interesting-steel-and-is-this-sallander-t24203.html

You can see how her belly IS white, but the white area is reduced from what it should be.

 

[Dood]

Buck must be a very light silver tipped steel (called "steel grey" in Flemish) or a different buck fathered this kit. A picture of the fathers belly colour would help determine in he's steel

The odd looking harlequin chestnuts could be harlequinized chinchilla - the picture is not the greatest

In my experience steel harlequins are very dark but I don't have any super light steels :shrug:

 

[TF3]

Huh.
So Bigwig could appear chin but hide steel on the E locus?
(No possible second sire in this bunch!)

I'll have to flip him for pics.
To my knowledge he has only got white under his tail and typical black lacing -- there must be more white, I'll check!

That he is a light steel makes the most sense.
I saw his grandfather, same coloring and his dam was a rew.

The kit has no white and the lighter colouring coming in is decidedly yellowish/tan which would be wrong for chin and undesirable in steel, but from your link above Zass, it sounds like the tawniness is par for the course.

Oi!
The kits were a test batch to try and sort everyone out, so it doesn't really matter about the harle kits. But if I am dealing with Es I'd like to know! I really don't want steel!

 

[Zass]

The kits probably a gold tipped steel (since the rest of the litters is agouti and not chin?), so the tawny color is correct

Very simple genotype
A_ B_ C_ D_ Es_

Add an ej for Esej if it ever shows any harli brindling.


As for the rest, look inside the ears. If any are not white inside at this age, they are steels for sure.

There is a ton of variety possible in steels, with some looking almost chestnut(or chinchilla) at an early age, and some looking all the way black and only showing some ticking later...or never.

 

[TF3]

Craziness!

I flipped the big guy... Not a nice white agouti belly at all.
It appears greyish to (minimal) white with distinct tawny bits.
I'll get pics tomorrow, but sure sounds like he is steel.

I'll check the kits for the ears.
I think most are agouti-- big white tums-- but I can't be sure of anything!

:shock:
Well, poop.
I don't really want a steel, but I like the big goof.
Back to the books on this one.

 

[Zass]

Silver tip steel is chinchilla modified by steel, and gold tipped is just chestnut modified steel.

Both types can be colored with dilute or chocolate or both (lilac) but so far, it doesn't seem like you have any of those genes to worry about.

 

[TF3]

The other 6 kits have white in their ears so looks like they are all agouti with some carrying an ej from mom.

So Bigwig would be EsE, since dam is likely eje and all the other kits are E_ ?
Would Bigwig still be cchd_ (as he would be silver tipped steel/chin?)

 

[Dood]

Since you have chestnut kits that are not harlequinized then they are "E e" and the doe is "ej e" and the buck "Es E"

 

[TF3]

Thanks Zass and Dood!
That is a big chunk of info that will be helpful!

__________ Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:16 am __________

So...
Would Bigwig still be cchd_ or C_ or unknown?

Agouti chestnut kits without visible harlequin would be
A_ B_ C_ D_ Ee or Eej
(If they carry steel it would've expressed).

(Just thinking if I have a chestnut agouti doe she could go back to sire, I won't keep the steel kit as it is very small and I don't want Clover's ej on this side of the FGs)

 

[Dood]

If Bigwig was "C_" he would not be chinchilla coloured but chestnut, so he is "cchd_" and breeding him back to a daughter might reveal what his unknown recessive on the C-locus is (If you really want to know then cross him to a REW)

From this harli doe (A_ B_ C_ D_ ej e) and silver tip steel/steel gray buck (A_ B_ cchd_ D_ Es E)

The chestnut kits must be "E e"
The harlequin chestnuts are "E ej"
The steel are "Es e" or "Es ej"

Your buck is so light and somewhat smutty that I still think some of the greyer looking "chestnuts" are actually chinchilla (that may or may not be harlequinized)

 

[Zass]

I also wanted to say, those are some BIG healthy looking kits.

 

[TF3]

They *are* big~ I don't know what is normal, but at 10 days a couple were 275 g.
Having 7 instead of 10 has really increased their size and growth rate.

Mind you, I went to a show last weekend and saw some of the Flemish there...*jaw dropped* holy cow.
And the French Lops and Checkered Giants... just wow.
Bigwig is a pipsqueak!
But then, not *all* were so massive and showed well, too ( proper weight, just 15-17 lbs. vs. 22-24!).

I do know that I have to keep size UP so while I think the gold tipped steel is pretty cool (and not a legal colour!) I am gong to hold out for a bigger one another time!

 

[FourRingCircus]

OK, so I am trying to figure out color names... I have some that look just like your first photos so they would be chestnuts? And pretty sure 2 if not all 3 have some harlequin (I know the gene is in there, from the dad, because my first litter had a pretty harlequin kit). If you look at the face of one you can see a distinct color difference between the two sides of its mouth, and I think one has two different colored front paws as well (hard to tell sometimes since it's so dark overall).

 

[TF3]

Yes, they are chestnut (although they may have a steel thing happening, it isn't apparent yet).
For mine that have harlequinized chestnut, you can see the brindling across the white on their bellies on each one.
With my FG crosses that are orange/ black there is definitely some half/half stuff happening from that ej gene!

 

[Zass]

(although they may have a steel thing happening, it isn't apparent yet).

Steel VS chestnut is much easier to determine on kits than it is on adult rabbits.

I am 99.99% positive that none of the white-inside-the-ears kits will ever steel later. They already have the pure white expressed, and steel seems to always inhibit that in chestnuts.

The appearance of the white will reduce eventually, but that is normal chestnut development and not steeling.

When the normal reduction of the appearance of the white becomes a factor in a growing rabbit... that's when determining heavily tipped steel VS chestnut gets a little trickier, but never impossible IMO. It's no a problem if you've already determined who's who back when they were small..

Black VS dark or masked steel is where breeders really struggle.

 

[TF3]

Oh, good! <br /><br /> __________ Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:16 am __________ <br /><br /> Or not so good! :lol: :lol:

Please bear with me, I am really trying to figure this out to determine whether to keep my buck in play OR to find him a same-colour mate etc.
This breeding was to sort out some of the genetics and I am glad I did or that steel could have hid!

So today is day 16 (and these little porkers hit 400 g!).
We have determined that Bigwig (sire) is A_ B_ C_ cchd_ D_ Ese (appears chinchilla/ light grey but carries steel)
Dam (Clover) is A_ B_ C_ D_ eje (fawn with brindling, throws harles)

There is one gold-tipped steel kit.
SIX appearing chestnut, of various shades, some with harlequin evident on their bellies.

NOW... some have white in their ears, some do not (whether this was my lack of observation OR progression of colour in the last week).
NOW... some have white bellies with pure white hair (and harle marks) BUT some have black rooted hair all over belly (no apparent harle).

So, I am thinking that the darkened bellies would be steeled? Very rufus chinchillas rather than chestnuts = silver tipped steel?
There is a visible difference in the tone of their coats vs. those with white bellies (who appear oranger).

The top pictures show two of the dark haired bellies and an ear.
The bottom ones show a white belly and ear.


In the end, I am selling them all because I don't want the harlequinized ones, the gold tipped steel is runty and while I considered keeping a chestnut agouti, if they are steeled, then they are not even close to either steel or light grey for matching with my buck (who would do better with a larger, true steel doe).
But I am trying to learn

 

[Zass]

I do not believe that the black under color is an indicator of steel. So long as the tips of the belly fur and tail are white, they should be chestnuts.

The lighting is giving everything in all 5 photos an off color cast, but I'm pretty sure I'm seeing only variations in chestnut here.

 

[TF3]

Thanks Zass!
I wasn't sure since some are pure white and others only tipped white