Missing eyeball - Birth defect

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Zinnia

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New mom (French Angora). I wasn't sure she took, but thought I felt a few kits. She went 2 days past her date and gave birth to 5 HUGE babies. One was very bruised and DOA. Three had swollen genitals and another appears to be missing an eyeball, as there is no bump under the one side. Crusty bits on the opening show that some fluid must have leaked. If the eye never developed, I wouldn't think I'd see evidence of fluid leaking, so I believe there had been an eyeball in utero. This is a newborn, so not nest box eye. They are now two days old.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening?


 
I have seen it in chicks that I have hatched out. It appears that its eye never developed. You can have no eye and still have liquid come out of the eye socket.
 
This was a concern to me. If the eye never developed, the dam is being culled. If it ruptured, she stays. I really like the doe, so I had hoped that the signs of swelling and bruising in the rest of the litter, being 2 days overdue and huge would suggest an eyeball could had been there and ruptured. :(
 
There may be a bit more going on with this kit..From the first picture the nose looks a little off to one side as well as the split between the upper lip,..Possible cleft pallet? :? What to do with the kit is up to you, I would give the doe another chance..Maybe with a different buck. The issues may not be in her genetics at all..If she is down to three or four you can breed her right away..That is what I would do, but I go for three strikes before counting a nice doe out.. :D
 
I may do that. Thanks.

-- Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:51 pm --

Katiebear, thanks for your reply, too. Some more background on this doe.... She's one of two survivors out of a litter who's dam ate the vinyl off of her transport carrier as she was being transported to me. It wasn't my carrier and I don't think the person who put her in it expected she'd eat it. That was just days before I bred her and hadn't imagined the danger. That litter had 2 with birth defects... the first I'd ever seen of any in my rabbitry. No other problem litters for the buck at all. Just that doe and now, her doe's litter. So, the more I think about it, the more I think I just need to accept the fact that this line will have the residual toxin effects from that vinyl. I could not find any reference anywhere to a ruptured eyeball in the birth canal. And, it occurs to me that there would be a lot more localized bruising on the eye for that kind of pressure to have bust it.

Bummer.
:(
 
Man that is a bummer, I believe that cm farm had a valid point in that the eyeball may not have developed at all..Coyote joe(a member )had a kit born without an eyeball. .he found out when it failed to open the eye..With the possable ingestion of toxic material, who knows what was affected. Maybe we should research the vinyl? But it looks like at least the daughters reproductive organs were affected in the womb. .it's a tough call to try again or put her down..if you do cull her I would like to see the insides.
 
So would I. :|

I know vinyl affects humans' reproductive organs and causes birth defects. I shouldn't have kept any from that first litter. Birthing purges toxins from the body and, unfortunately into the offspring. It is interesting to note that the dam of this new mom had a healthy litter after that first defective one. Or what appears so far to be quite healthy.
 
I just took a quick look at vinyl toxicity, Mother earth news has a couple of interesting articles...but from what most of the info says it is most toxic when burning. ..but there are so many warnings about having it around babies..scary stuff.
May want to see if the next litter from the mom has birth defects in their offspring. ..
It would be an interesting experiment. ..if you can take it..
 
The documentary Blue Vinyl is an example of toxicity in humans.

I am contemplating a small autopsy to see if an eyeball ever formed. I think the life of the defective kit is the one to be spared under the circumstances. I may keep the doe for another breeding, which I'd probably do quite soon. <br /><br /> -- Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:17 pm -- <br /><br /> OK, I'm glad I decided to cull this kit. As hard as that was.... she was very strong. :cry:

This was a birth defect. My husband opened up the skin on the head and we discovered that the skull looked fairly symmetrical, the intact eyeball looked normal. It was hard to tell if the missing eyeball could have ruptured until we decided to rupture the intact one. Then, it became obvious that the defective side was different. It was missing the top ridge of bone over the socket. The intact eye's bone was clearly more substantial and the defective one was thin and more concave.

So, this points to either the toxin (and there are studies of missing eyes caused by exposure) or a genetic problem from the pairing. Either way, it was a birth defect that has me seriously questioning whether or not to keep this doe. Fortunately, I do have several good does right now, including related does that have never had problems.
 
I have been thinking about this and I believe you are correct in your summation...it is difficult to breed a doe that has thrown defects...it had a cleft pallet kit and struggled with breeding the dam again..she has had two litters sense but she has other problems..so she's headed for camp.
I can't recommend keeping a doe that you are afraid to breed....with the possibility that she has a damaged reproductive system, you will probably be further ahead to cull her..maybe if she is used for wool only she can be productive. But breeding her is risky..I breed for meat and defective does can not be part of the program. .but still..my heart is breaking for you..you will be in my prayers. ..
 
Omg... I'm pretty horrified right now. I have two 'condos' I built for the rabbits.. they have vinyl flooring on the bottom and shelves. :x

I'm going to have to correct that right away and put them all into the wire cages :( I just hope no permanent damage has been done!

Sorry for the issues you're having, hope it's unrelated to the vinyl chewing and you get a healthy litter from her next time.
 
Here's an update. Her full sister was bred to a different buck. She gave birth today, late just as her sister did. Some of her babies are bruised, swollen feet and genitals... don't really see this in other litters.

More confirming to the original point of this thread, she had a kit with Spina-bifida. So there you have it. More details later, but I wanted to update my discovers.
 
So sorry, Zinnia. I'd cull these does. Sad, but very interesting. Sounds like these girls caught the full effect of the toxins that Mom ate. I appreciate you sharing this because it helps us be really aware of our bun's surroundings & their effects.
 
Here are the facts. Trying to piece this together to see what I should do.... I should note that in my rabbitry, with dozens of litters from several does, the following have been the only incidence of birth defects. The problem begins with this....

Dam ate vinyl a few days prior to breeding. This dam's litter from that pregnancy produced two kits with birth defects, two with horrible immune systems (worst nest box eye I've seen) and two that seemed fine.

Those two does that seemed fine grew beautifully and were bred, each to a different buck.

Daughter 1 went two days over usual for the breed, and produced kits that were huge, bruised with swollen genitals and one with an eye missing (and one DOA). All have crooked tails.

Daughter 2 (bred to different sire than her sister) went one and a half days over usual and produced bruised kits and one with Spina-bifida (and one DOA). All have crooked tails.

HOWEVER....

The original dam went on to have 2 additional litters.

Litter 2 produced no birth defects (but 1/2 had crooked tails).

Litter 3 (just days old now) produced perfect little kits with straight tails. *Different sire than litters 1 and 2.


I think I am seeing that crooked tails are showing up only in litters where other health issues expressed themselves. Is it possible that latent poor genetics are displayed in vulnerable (toxin-exposed) kits, but may not in a healthy litter? The only common thread I see for the very high percentage of crooked tails in litters is that they were from a litter that included other health issues (birth defects).

*The two sires in these pairings have produced full litters with rare or no incidence of crooked tails when paired with other does. But the original dam produced her third litter with perfect tails.

My guess is that by the third litter, the dam rid herself of the toxin that created the health issues in the first place. That seems to be the logical explanation. And this is where I am now having trouble with my next step....

If I am correct with this theory, then these two daughters should have healthy 3rd litters. But that means two more litters (one from each doe) will be sacrificed. Well.... being wool rabbits, they could be pets and produce wool. But, they could never be bred. At least not this first batch!

Since we harvest rabbits to feed our family, I have never had a moral issue with culling. BUT.... Would I eat this group? No. That means I must be very sure I can find good wooler homes for all these less than perfect ones. Is that even smart? :? I know it's probably just preference. But, I am struggling. Do people cull tiny kits that are strong and active, but faulty? I mean, the remaining kits in these litters seem strong, very strong, but faulty.

I'm open to hearing what you all think.
 
Zinnia":yex2p2i9 said:
If I am correct with this theory, then these two daughters should have healthy 3rd litters

I follow your logic but..these two daughters were exposed to the toxin in the womb so their reproductive system could be compromised...If the eggs are mutated or defective as a result of this exposure while forming, your chances of a defect free litter is probably not that good. Momma just ate the toxin, these girls have it bonded with their cells...I just don't know..
 
Well...not necessarily, the way I'm looking at it. The dam had a healthy immune system prior to ingesting something that could have toxins. After ingesting it would be in her body, and in her cells. As her cells reproduce & die & are replaced, she would eventually get back to a healthy body once again. (Although she may have a weakened immune system.) Her first litter of kits would get the first "blast" of issues since toxins were still heavily in her system & cells, the second would be less problematic but possibly still have some issues because the immediate toxins would have left her system and secondary impact on cells would be working its way out, and possibly third and consequent liters would be back to her norm as her body repairs itself. I agree with you on that theory.

Now, as far as the offspring: the first gen would get a "blast" of immediate toxins in utero which would impact them and they'd need to detox after being born if it didn't impact their development--but it is also possible that those same toxins may have altered their very genetics and/or caused minor deformities or issues in internal and reproductive organs that are not visible. This wouldn't then be a matter of letting their bodies heal themselves, as was the case of their mother, but the possible toxicity may have altered their very structure. (Their life supply of eggs that they are born with could be impacted as well, which might mean all their eggs may be more likely to be defective.) That would mean the odd issues in the kits might be their norm. They may be formed in such a way that issues aren't visually noticeable, but that they may have distortions in their very genes--and in that case giving them time to work it out won't make a difference. I suspect they are possibly "not right".

I'd unknowingly been exposed to a heavy dose of pesticides when I was a young adult. While I looked seemingly healthy and med tests at the time didn't reveal measurable toxin levels, I started to display asthma-like reactions and other health issues during heavy traffic times or near polluted areas, or even if I smelled air fresheners, household cleaners or was too near someone wearing perfumes I moved from the area and to another state entirely and went on a very "clean" diet and lifestyle. It took about 7 years before I quit experiencing any immediate symptoms and felt close to normal (although to this day my immune system isn't strong, and I will sometimes break out in hives from being near to toxins (something as simple as even filling a car tank with gas) or natural irritant when I am under stress--basically, anything that puts extra stress on my body and that never was even a noticeable issue to me prior to the situation.) Putting that out there because exposure to toxins can really have a strong impact on some living creatures and you'd never know it from looking at them.

Not sure what I'd do about sending the kits on as woolers. Other folks should have better input on that than me since I just raise meat mutts, and I'm with you in thinking I wouldn't eat these, even if it's just an odd chance.

oh--sorry, katiebear beat me to the punch & said all that but in a much cleaner and clearer way than I did. I agree with her points.
 
Thanks guys. I, too have a feeling there could easily be something "not right" that is unseen. They could appear to be fine or even great in some aspects, but reproduction or lifespan could be hindered.

Katiebear, I have a similar history with a toxic house as a child that led to ongoing severe adrenal problems. As this topic relates to humans.... My first preg. was a miscarriage, second preg. produced a wonderful girl who has severe adrenal issues... third a bit healthier, fourth, fifth and sixth a bit better.... whew! :roll: (You see why I need to live vicariously through my bunnies now that my own child-bearing years are waning?).

I really appreciate the points made here. I am going to ponder this... Likely I will need to nip this in the bud. Usually not a tough decision, but these two daughters are extra sweet and extra gorgeous... :(
 
It COULD be that there is some genetic quirk that just isn't working well with that line of does and the buck who is throwing genetic defects. It's hard to know if the vinyl is simply out of their systems, or if the healthy litter is due to a completely different buck. The only way to know for sure, would be further test breeding.

Hope you figure it out!
 
Two different bucks with perfect records of healthy offspring, though... So, not the bucks.

The trouble with continuing to breed the daughters is that I eat my culls... but don't think I'd eat these culls. So, it becomes a moral issue for me. And, since have so many really great does, I really need to just cull these daughters, I think. Maybe I could sell them as woolers and express that they should not breed.
 

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