Meat breeds- when you decide/ cull for show?

[skysthelimit]

I am considering separating the ones I am keeping and the ones that will be meat. The litters are 9 weeks and eight weeks. I am sure there are some basic things I can decide right now--what am I looking for in a 8 week old kit? I know what I am looking for in an older rabbit, but what things get better and are worth waiting out, and what things never get better?

 

[Epic]

Well it depends on the breed, what breed are they?

 

[Peach]

I would probably pick the ones (depending on the breed) that best meet the Standard Of Perfection.

 

[skysthelimit]

I would probably pick the ones (depending on the breed) that best meet the Standard Of Perfection.

Of course, that is not what I am trying to say.


They are Rex. What I mean is some times rabbits grow into things, at least it's that way with dogs. If there is something not there as a pup and they will grow into or out of something (too much angle, not enough angle, ears etc). Then there are somethings that will never get better, and when you see it, you know it's a pet. I start judging my pups at 5 weeks, usually what they are at 5 weeks it what they will become, and they grow steadily into themselves, like miniature adults. Most in my line get more angulation as they get older, till about two years, and fill in about to years, but if you are square as a 5 wk old, you're a pet. I can't wait until they are all 5 mos to judge, so I need to know what's worth waiting for and what is not.

Same with rabbits. I've been told to wait for castors, they go through ugly stages. I had one I waited till 14 weeks, prominent guard hairs and too much gray just don't get better, so I can cull him. The castor I have now is nine weeks, and most of the gray is gone, so he stays unless he has really poor form, until he proves otherwise.

So a a rule of thumb, what things may improve over time, and what things do do automatically cull for, and around what ages/stages. Just general for the meat type breeds, as they are basically judged the same way, except Rex fur of course. I am automatically culling for fur unless the kit has a very good body.

 

[SMR]

I have Mini Rex, Holland Lop, English Lop, Velveteen Lop, Lionhead, Netherland Dwarf, and New Zealand breeds but some things I think you can look at in any breed and eliminate some of the ones early on. Maybe there's some one else with the breed though that can be much more helpful.

A rabbit with both pinched and narrow hips for instance is some thing I look at in all the breeds I have early on. I don't know of a breed that you can't look at kids and know that early on. I usually check hq as well over all, if they've got a good or fair hq as a kit they'll have good or better as an adult...if its bad as a kit or just OK then they're probably not worth keeping if I'm looking at just hq. Another thing is balance and ear length early, not once they start their teens...if they've got awful long ears as a kid or they're over the breed limit already, they're not going to work out. Same with pinched muzzles and narrow heads. Undercoat coloring and general color can be done as well (too much or too little on brokens, wrong under coat or ring color, things of that nature), not sure who told you on the castors but a castor that doesn't have the correct undercoat or bands is never going to get it in in my experience with Mini Rex. Weight can be another thing, once you know your lines growth pattern. A kit that weighs in at half the size of litter mates will probably not make sr weight, there are exceptions but not always. A kit that weights a half pound over the sr weight limit as a jr or inter (don't know if rex have one or not) would not make the cut for show either as they'll probably go over weight. Some rabbits you might want to keep back for pieces to use in breeding, like you get one with super shoulders and head but just OK hq. Or you get one with great hq and flesh but not so great shoulders.

Once they hit their teenage uglies, don't look at them again for cuts unless its a weight issue cause some of the best rabbits look like crud in the ugly teen phase. It can be different for every line, some start early and last well over their senior age (hollands are horrible for this), others its very short maybe a week or two and then they look like lil mini nice adults even though they're still jrs.

 

[skysthelimit]

I checked all of the hq's. I've got one from one litter that has pinched hq's, but good width between the shoulders, and one that has good width in the hq's but narrow shoulders. One is a buck and one is a doe, the same color, so I'm thinking of keeping them.

I have a few with both v shaped hq's and not enough width between the shoulders, they are going for meat. Some have what I would call on a dog an open coat, it does not feel or look like REX fur, it looks like NZ fur. That's not going to get any better is it? I don't care how good they look, I'd cull for that.

I've got an opal at 8 weeks with no ring color (it's a blue agouti for sure). I've been told the ring color can come in up to four months or never. It's a buck so I'm not keeping it that long.

 

[SMR]

Fur, I'd say no...not a guarantee but I've never had one with really bad fur get much better...they either got it or they don't.

Hmm maybe its just my no tolerance for it then on color, either they've got it or they don't when it comes to opal/castor/or the like. I wonder if its a specific line that does that or just in genera for ring coloring to come in? On siamese sable, sable points, himi, and such, I know color can take a longer time to finish out unless its just really really smutty one.

 

[skysthelimit]

The castor was really smutty, really gray, rings in the wrong order. Now most of that gray is gone.

update-picture-of-my-meat-rabbit-and-weight-t6047.html?hilit=%20castor
mine looked like Tutu before, and now looks like TuTu after. Most of that gray is gone.

I did read http://mysite.verizon.net/res14yqyl/id13.html found it a little confusing. Perhaps that's why the agoutis seem to be going out of fashion on the show table in standards.

 

[Random Rabbit]

My first 'cut' is based on sex. We really do not need a bazillion bucks... so unless they really catch my eye... they go directly to the meat pen.

Then i go thru the does... any that are merely mediocre, or unthrifty looking...into the meat pen.

Sometimes the whole litter goes...

The ones that we hold for a more thorough going over... need to have the rise start at the base of the ears. They must be smooth feeling... No backbone bumpyness or pin bone bumps. There must be no 'hang-up' when running our hands from shoulders to hips. Providing they get this far... we will put them into grow out cages and watch them as they develop.

Having said this... we are finding that the Am. Chins develop their shoulders a bit more slowly. With the Pals ... it is either There or it is not. So we are giving the Chins extra time to grow.

We are fortunate ( or not...maybe) that our processors want the rabbits close to 7 pounds. This permits us to watch them grow quite a bit. :bunnyhop:

 

[Peach]

Here is article called the "pencil test" for Mini Rex. I'm sure this can be applied to the standard rex.
http://cottonwoodfarms.tripod.com/pencil.html

 

[skysthelimit]

Here is article called the "pencil test" for Mini Rex. I'm sure this can be applied to the standard rex.
http://cottonwoodfarms.tripod.com/pencil.html

Sorry Peach I don't mean to sound rude, but I have that link on my site, and I am quite familiar with the SOP. I can judge a junior or senior animals easily, and have gone to show, and placed quite nicely. What I have never done is raised a litter from start to finish.
Other than the obvious culling for sex and health, everyone does that, what do SHOW breeders look for in a kit, not a senior or either junior animal, that doesn't change, or may change, that would cause them to keep a kit or cull a kit. As I said in dogs, I don't have 5 mos to grow out animals, there are things that are obvious and never get better, and things that are worth waiting for. Rabbits here must be sold as pets or culled for meat by 16 weeks or less. In rabbits, there are things that mean automatic cull or let it mature. I'm looking for a rule of thumb. Like SMR said, if the agouti rings are not there, SMR does not wait for them to appear, cull it.

 

[SMR]

Humm even with that, Standard Rex do not have the same type as a MR...so I don't see how the pencil test would be helpful. If you evaluated a Rex based on MR type, you'd have a poor Rex example.......

 

[skysthelimit]

My first 'cut' is based on sex. We really do not need a bazillion bucks... so unless they really catch my eye... they go directly to the meat pen.

Sex doesn't matter to me, showable does, since males have a longer show life than does, a buck can sit and show over and over, whereas the longer a doe is shown, the shorter her breeding life is. As we say in the dog world, the females are the foundation of a kennel, the stud is the reputation of the kennel. Bucks that will show will always be kept or held out to be sold.

Having said this... we are finding that the Am. Chins develop their shoulders a bit more slowly. With the Pals ... it is either There or it is not. So we are giving the Chins extra time to grow.

We are fortunate ( or not...maybe) that our processors want the rabbits close to 7 pounds. This permits us to watch them grow quite a bit. :bunnyhop:

This is what I am talking about. I will see with the Rexes. I don't know if they develop shoulder slowly or not. This is something I will have to ask about the lines I have. Since I have not done anyone start to finish, I am really making notes here. I've got 22 kits now, I don't think anyone who doesn't seem showy by 12 weeks will make it to 7 lbs. But I sure would hate to cull/sell something I should have waited a bit longer for, or kept something that will never change.

By the by--anything I think has any type of temperament issue-doesn't like to be handled, skiddish, etc, doesn't make it past 12 weeks. Buns go to work with me, and my neice visit frequently, they must be able to be handled.<br /><br />__________ Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:25 pm __________<br /><br />

Humm even with that, Standard Rex do not have the same type as a MR...so I don't see how the pencil test would be helpful. If you evaluated a Rex based on MR type, you'd have a poor Rex example.......

True, they are more compact than standards. It's a neat website anyway. It's like the color crossing rules site. I love it, but not all of the colors that appear in mini rexes appear in standards, and strangely enough, the ones that do apply to both are not always the same name. They are not really mini versions of each other, at some point they might have been, but when you see them posed, you see the difference.
Standards also do not get ear measurements, I never look at the ratio the the length of ears to the head. Basically I am concerned with width of shoulders, length of shoulders, where the highest peak is, depth, width of hips, and slope of the rear.

Is what I'm seeing in an 8 week old kit the same as I will see in an 8 month old senior?

 

[ladysown]

what do I look for in a kit to make it worth keeping? I start my cull at five-six weeks.

for polish.. small size, small ears, compact feeling (not just looking) body. the body needs to feel tight in my hands. I watch hind leg set.. how it moves. I've had pinched does and they can't have kids well so I pass on them.

for holland lops: for me size right now is important. That and colour. Smallest kits of the litter get a nod at this point...but I"m working hard to bring down the size on my rabbits. I also am starting to look at .. do they sit upright naturally.

for nz's, harle's.... I keep more for type and generally know at three days which ones I want to keep. I look for large kits that feel solid in my hands. then all I do is hope they are the gender that I need at the time. For harle's it's just a bonus if they are marked well. I DO NOT keep harle's with dutch markings though even if they are typey.<br /><br />__________ Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:30 pm __________<br /><br />

Is what I'm seeing in an 8 week old kit the same as I will see in an 8 month old senior?

sometimes but not always.
Part of it is needing to learn how your lines develop and some of it is just guess work.

Until you learn how your lines develop you just can't really know.

Keep mostly what you think is best at 8 weeks... so keep two.. and keep an eye on them, and cull as you go. Rabbits can sometimes totally surprise you.

 

[Peach]

I was just suggesting since I figured they are just smaller versions of each other but I don't know anything about the Rex breed compared to the mini rex but just thought it would be helpful in some way since I recalled seeing the website before.

__________ Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:27 am __________

Ill just keep an eye on this topic to see what I can learn from people that have a better knowledge. I'm interested in how you do choose your keepers

 

[Jack]

First check it 4-6 weeks, getting a feel for how the litter looks, sexing etc.
at 8 weeks when I seperate from the doe I go over them again, pretty hard and mark those I want to keep if I'm not tatting at that time,
Then I check them again at 12 weeks, trying to beat the teenage uglies. That's the last check those that were selected twice go to their respected piles
the single times, get compared to eachother and the keepers, and usually I'm under a number limit, so there is a hard cut off. If you don't look better than your sib, then you don't get the chance to grow out for show, mine aren't meat, so they go for pets or meat or donated to the bird rescue or zoo.
point is, they go.

 

[skysthelimit]

First check it 4-6 weeks, getting a feel for how the litter looks, sexing etc.
at 8 weeks when I seperate from the doe I go over them again, pretty hard and mark those I want to keep if I'm not tatting at that time,
Then I check them again at 12 weeks, trying to beat the teenage uglies. That's the last check those that were selected twice go to their respected piles
the single times, get compared to eachother and the keepers, and usually I'm under a number limit, so there is a hard cut off. If you don't look better than your sib, then you don't get the chance to grow out for show, mine aren't meat, so they go for pets or meat or donated to the bird rescue or zoo.
point is, they go.

I will start looking at the earlier, and make some kind of mark. Ok, a cut at 12 and for me, a cut at 16 weeks, at the age they'd be good for meat, or crafts. Rexes don't really sell for pets here, everybody wants minis or dwarfs. Strangely, I started this whole venture to feed my show dogs, figured I might as well show the rabbits too.

 

[Jack]

when they are too little they don't show the potential, then at a certain point (4-8ish) week they look like mini of what they will be, esp. in body - minus major adult characteristics such as a developed head, however you can still judge on things like eye width, ear set and size and texture etc.

Then you want to do your final before the uglies set in (teenage- long body, lean, narrow head LONG ears etc.)

 

[skysthelimit]

Interestingly, that sounds like the same pattern for grading puppies. And of course you must know your breed, but there are puppy milestones to mark certain things, and there are rabbit milestones too.

For instance, if german shepherd ears don't come up by 6 mos, tape them. Most of the time if they are not up by 9-10 mos, they are not coming up.

So I've been told, if Opal rings aren't good by 4 mos, they will never be. I wonder when I will start seeing rings?

 

[Jack]

depends on coat/breed
you should have rings in an agouti at~4-6 weeks, BUT if they require the adult coat then you are looking at 4-9 ish months dependent on breed season, weather..... etc.
I have been told that the first and second thrianta coats are the best they will ever be, but I have seen better color on my older rabbits, you will get it but it takes time.