Magpie, but what color?

[user 8990]

What color is this magpie? Any help appreciated.

 

[sassafrasshat]

I can't help but just wanted to comment to say how beautiful your bunny is! Is this an english angora?

 

[ladysown]

it's really hard to tell, I mostly just see white... the ears look to be black. If so, black magpie.

 

[user 8990]

I can't help but just wanted to comment to say how beautiful your bunny is! Is this an english angora?

Thank you! Yes, he’s English and has a wonderful coat and disposition. I’m hoping to breed him soon.

 

[Alaska Satin]

What color is this magpie? Any help appreciated. View attachment 33083View attachment 33083

On my computer screen it looks like he has fawn around his nose. Magpie is only white with black (or blue, chocolate, or lilac). Any chance he is a broken/tri?
What are the colors in his background?

 

[user 8990]

it's really hard to tell, I mostly just see white... the ears look to be black. If so, black magpie.

Excellent! His pedigree says black but his nose is really throwing me. Why’s it have such a warm tone??
Getting ready to shear his wool and will have a better idea of his markings underneath. He’s so pretty in person.

 

[user 8990]

On my computer screen it looks like he has fawn around his nose. Magpie is only white with black (or blue, chocolate, or lilac). Any chance he is a broken/tri?
What are the colors in his background?

Exactly! Okay, his sire is black magpie with lilac pearl, and black fawn tris in the background. Dam is chocolate magpie with tort and lilac magpie. Broken blue, black and amber in the background. Really appreciate your help!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Exactly! Okay, his sire is black magpie with lilac pearl, and black fawn tris in the background. Dam is chocolate magpie with tort and lilac magpie. Broken blue, black and amber in the background. Really appreciate your help!

I'd call him a tri, then. Since his sire has broken on his pedigree (the black/fawn tri), that broken gene could certainly have carried through the sire since you wouldn't necessarily be able to identify the broken pattern in the magpie coloration. (So I'm saying his sire was probably a broken magpie, not a magpie per se.)
The fawn on his nose is really pale so I'd guess a blue/fawn tri for your bunny. But it is pretty hard to be certain given the scarcity of spots and the issue of paler colors on wool, plus the fact that he's got lilac (chocolate) on both sides. He doesn't look like a chocolate tri at all, neither the dark color nor the fawn argues for that, but he could possibly be a lilac tri instead of a blue tri.
I'd love to see photos from after he's sheared!

 

[ladysown]

well... if his nose is an off colour... I'd be more inclined to call him a sable magpie.... particularly with the tor and chocolate in his background. If he is a tricolour... he looks like a charlie. When he is sheared look for spotting on his ears, that will tell you quite a bit.

 

[user 8990]

well... if his nose is an off colour... I'd be more inclined to call him a sable magpie.... particularly with the tor and chocolate in his background. If he is a tricolour... he looks like a charlie. When he is sheared look for spotting on his ears, that will tell you quite a bit.

Thank you! I will look for it when I shear him and get better photos. Possibly tonight! Finally found my ott true color light and that’ll help.
Could he be a broken lilac Pearl?? I just knew something was off with the color. Very happy with the bunny, just need to know what he is!

 

[user 8990]

The plot thickens!!!! Still haven’t sheared him yet but I’m dying to see him without the wool in the way. The pedigree I have and the pedigree on global pedigree have one marked difference. The names match but the lilac magpie on the bottom of his pedigree is a sable magpie on global pedigree and there’s a photo. Somewhere along the way someone realized that the lilac magpie was really a sable magpie. My buck is a lot lighter than the sable in the photo and seems to have a much lighter overall look which could be explained by the broken gene or by the Vienna gene which is there too. I’m hoping to find some answers by shearing.

 

[user 8990]

Clipping didn’t help, so I bred him to a blue doe with an extensive pedigree and mostly known genotype. She’s aaBBC_ddE_ and their offspring are Black self and broken black otter or ata__CchdDdE_.

I was so off base it’s incredible! So I now believe that the buck is an otter ermine magpie.

The tan should be pretty easy to breed out, I would think. So how do I breed him? I am impressed with his offspring’s substance and muscularity. Something lacking in the doe’s genes. This test litter is her last.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Clipping didn’t help, so I bred him to a blue doe with an extensive pedigree and mostly known genotype. She’s aaBBC_ddE_ and their offspring are Black self and broken black otter or ata__CchdDdE_.

So where did the <Cchd> in your broken black otter kit come from? Black otter out of a blue self would be <ataB_C_DdE_> If you got a normal otter, not a martin, I'm not sure why you'd add a chinchilla allele there (unless you suspect your blue doe is actually a self squirrel).
Unless you know the sire is a magpie - and I think that's one of the questions we're all picking at - I'd leave the cchd off the kit's pedigree.

I was so off base it’s incredible! So I now believe that the buck is an otter ermine magpie.

I'm still wondering about that distinct yellowish color on his nose. A magpie shouldn't have that color (I say "shouldn't" because genetics doesn't always play by the rules we've set for it , haha!). In re-reading the posts, the tort in his pedigree suddenly jumped out at me. That would cause the presence of both fawn and dove colors on the rabbit, and the placement of the dark and light tones on his ears/nose might be explained by <ee> as well. On the other hand, if he has pearl in his background, it could be the sable gene <cchl> causing the warm hues, as suggested by @ladysown. Unfortunately, charlies leave little to go on! But now my suggestion is either torted otter charlie <ataB_C_D_eeEnEn> or some kind of pearl, which comes from the sable allele <cchl>.

Here's a torted otter from Coat Color Photo Matrix (imagine it with all the color gone except that tiny bit on the nose and ears):


The other possibility is smoke pearl charlie <A_B_cchl_ddE_EnEn>, although if his parents were truly black magpie and chocolate magpie (always a possibility that someone made a mistake identifying their colors!) you wouldn't be able to get the agouti <A> required for that. A martinized otter charlie (aka smoke pearl marten <a(t)_B_c(chl)_ddE_EnEn>) would be more likely, but wouldn't (shouldn't) have the warm tones.

Here's a smoke pearl from Coat Color Photo Matrix

And here's a smoke pearl marten from the same source:


Anyway, there are the latest thoughts.
I'd love to see photos of your buck after he was sheared (especially his ears).

 

[user 8990]

So where did the <Cchd> in your broken black otter kit come from? Black otter out of a blue self would be <ataB_C_DdE_> If you got a normal otter, not a martin, I'm not sure why you'd add a chinchilla allele there (unless you suspect your blue doe is actually a self squirrel).
Unless you know the sire is a magpie - and I think that's one of the questions we're all picking at - I'd leave the cchd off the kit's pedigree.


I'm still wondering about that distinct yellowish color on his nose. A magpie shouldn't have that color (I say "shouldn't" because genetics doesn't always play by the rules we've set for it , haha!). In re-reading the posts, the tort in his pedigree suddenly jumped out at me. That would cause the presence of both fawn and dove colors on the rabbit, and the placement of the dark and light tones on his ears/nose might be explained by <ee> as well. On the other hand, if he has pearl in his background, it could be the sable gene <cchl> causing the warm hues, as suggested by @ladysown. Unfortunately, charlies leave little to go on! But now my suggestion is either torted otter charlie <ataB_C_D_eeEnEn> or some kind of pearl, which comes from the sable allele <cchl>.

Here's a torted otter from Coat Color Photo Matrix (imagine it with all the color gone except that tiny bit on the nose and ears):
View attachment 34509

The other possibility is smoke pearl charlie <A_B_cchl_ddE_EnEn>, although if his parents were truly black magpie and chocolate magpie (always a possibility that someone made a mistake identifying their colors!) you wouldn't be able to get the agouti <A> required for that. A martinized otter charlie (aka smoke pearl marten <a(t)_B_c(chl)_ddE_EnEn>) would be more likely, but wouldn't (shouldn't) have the warm tones.

Here's a smoke pearl from Coat Color Photo Matrix
View attachment 34510
And here's a smoke pearl marten from the same source:
View attachment 34511

Anyway, there are the latest thoughts.
I'd love to see photos of your buck after he was sheared (especially his ears).

Excellent points, thank you! Photos first. He is outside in cloudy conditions, while grooming. Definitely has magpie markings on his face. He’s shaded on the ears, mask and feet.

 

[user 8990]

His kit is a broken black with tan nostrils and white ears out of a broken blue doe. I have no reason to suspect squirrel from her pedigree, was thinking that the magpie required cchd to exist. And he’s definitely a magpie, in fact that’s also his name.
Is it possible to have a magpie with cchl?? I agree he appears shaded. Could he be an otter sable point??
White everywhere else.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Excellent points, thank you! Photos first. He is outside in cloudy conditions, while grooming. Definitely has magpie markings on his face. He’s shaded on the ears, mask and feet.

Oof, tricky, tricky! I didn't know he had color on his feet; that's unusual for brokens.

After embarrassingly much agonizing, I was leaning toward sable magpie charlie (previously suggested by @ladysown). This would mean you don't have the chin gene to completely eliminate the expression of yellow pigment as in a black magpie, but the sable allele <cchl> will give you that smoky look (and it could have come from the pearl in his background, which comes from that sable allele). Even though the C-series genes are supposed to eliminate the yellowish tones, sable seems to bring them back a little in the form of sepia (which is not from yellow pigment).

I found these images of sable magpie on Coat Color Photo Matrix and they seem pretty reminiscent of what little we can see on your buck:

His kit is a broken black with tan nostrils and white ears out of a broken blue doe. I have no reason to suspect squirrel from her pedigree, was thinking that the magpie required cchd to exist. And he’s definitely a magpie, in fact that’s also his name.
Is it possible to have a magpie with cchl?? I agree he appears shaded. Could he be an otter sable point??
White everywhere else.

HOWEVER...
You show what may be a tan kit, and said earlier that he also produced a self black kit with a blue doe. That means that he has to carry a self allele <a>.

Harlequin expresses properly when it's an agouti, and agouti <A> is dominant to tan <at>, so he could have produced a tan kit with a blue doe if he is <Aat>. The tan <at> would dominate the broken blue doe's self allele <a> to produce a tan-marked kit <ata>. But we know the buck has to be <?a> to make a self.

It seems to me the only way you could explain this is if he is a sable marten charlie magpie. (Say that five times fast, haha!) That would be written <ataB_ccchl_D_ej_EnEn>

Here is a sable marten from Coat Color Photo Matrix. It seems too dark, but combined with the harlie and charlie you might end up with what your buck looks like...???


He would not be an otter since the yellow pigment is gone - otter without the yellow is called marten. He would also not be a sable point since that is <ee> which leaves no place for the harlie <ej>, unless he is not actually a magpie but a basic charlie without the harlie allele...which he could be, i.e. <ataB_cchl_D_eeEnEn>

So there is my convoluted conclusion: sable marten charlie magpie or sable point charlie. The way to find out would be to breed him to a solid non-extension color like another sable point, a tort or an orange; if he is a sable point, all of their offspring would be non-extension colors (and all broken-colored, but at least no charlies!).

Whew, thank for the genetics workout!! (Something tells me we might not be done... )

 

[user 8990]

Wow!

Oof, tricky, tricky! I didn't know he had color on his feet; that's unusual for brokens.

After embarrassingly much agonizing, I was leaning toward sable magpie charlie (previously suggested by @ladysown). This would mean you don't have the chin gene to completely eliminate the expression of yellow pigment as in a black magpie, but the sable allele <cchl> will give you that smoky look (and it could have come from the pearl in his background, which comes from that sable allele). Even though the C-series genes are supposed to eliminate the yellowish tones, sable seems to bring them back a little in the form of sepia (which is not from yellow pigment).

I found these images of sable magpie on Coat Color Photo Matrix and they seem pretty reminiscent of what little we can see on your buck:
View attachment 34542View attachment 34543View attachment 34544


HOWEVER...
You show what may be a tan kit, and said earlier that he also produced a self black kit with a blue doe. That means that he has to carry a self allele <a>.

Harlequin expresses properly when it's an agouti, and agouti <A> is dominant to tan <at>, so he could have produced a tan kit with a blue doe if he is <Aat>. The tan <at> would dominate the broken blue doe's self allele <a> to produce a tan-marked kit <ata>. But we know the buck has to be <?a> to make a self.

It seems to me the only way you could explain this is if he is a sable marten charlie magpie. (Say that five times fast, haha!) That would be written <ataB_ccchl_D_ej_EnEn>

Here is a sable marten from Coat Color Photo Matrix. It seems too dark, but combined with the harlie and charlie you might end up with what your buck looks like...???
View attachment 34545

He would not be an otter since the yellow pigment is gone - otter without the yellow is called marten. He would also not be a sable point since that is <ee> which leaves no place for the harlie <ej>, unless he is not actually a magpie but a basic charlie without the harlie allele...which he could be, i.e. <ataB_cchl_D_eeEnEn>

So there is my convoluted conclusion: sable marten charlie magpie or sable point charlie. The way to find out would be to breed him to a solid non-extension color like another sable point, a tort or an orange; if he is a sable point, all of their offspring would be non-extension colors (and all broken-colored, but at least no charlies!).

Whew, thank for the genetics workout!! (Something tells me we might not be done... )

Wow! So much to respond to.. I don’t think he can be a charlie since the only broken in his pedigree is several generations back. Does that change anything??

 

[Alaska Satin]

Wow!

Wow! So much to respond to.. I don’t think he can be a charlie since the only broken in his pedigree is several generations back. Does that change anything??

Well yes, you're right, he wouldn't be a charlie if his parents weren't brokens. He could certainly be an extremely lightly-marked sable martin magpie (with the sable courtesy of the pearl ancestor).

Okay, his sire is black magpie with lilac pearl, and black fawn tris in the background. Dam is chocolate magpie with tort and lilac magpie. Broken blue, black and amber in the background.

But if his parents are both magpies, they could be broken magpies. With tricolors (broken harlequins) in the sire's background and a broken in the dam's, you wouldn't necessarily know. You would not be sure which white came from the chin gene and which came from the broken gene. The two ways to find out is if there was a solid in between the broken/tri ancestors and the buck, or test breeing him with a solid. If he's a charlie, all the kits will be broken; if he's a broken, roughly half the kits will be broken (but not a sure thing).

 

[user 8990]

Well yes, you're right, he wouldn't be a charlie if his parents weren't brokens. He could certainly be an extremely lightly-marked sable martin magpie (with the sable courtesy of the pearl ancestor).


But if his parents are both magpies, they could be broken magpies. With tricolors (broken harlequins) in the sire's background and a broken in the dam's, you wouldn't necessarily know. You would not be sure which white came from the chin gene and which came from the broken gene. The two ways to find out is if there was a solid in between the broken/tri ancestors and the buck, or test breeing him with a solid. If he's a charlie, all the kits will be broken; if he's a broken, roughly half the kits will be broken (but not a sure thing).

Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it!!!