lost 5 day old litter--need advice

[Rainey]

Alna had her litter, 8 kits on Tuesday. On the wire but got to them right away, warmed them and put them in the nest box. Checked the next couple days and they were warm, fed, together in the nest. Thought all was well. This morning Joanna did the morning chores while the light was still dim, didn't check the nest box. Early this afternoon, found one kit out of the nest, back legs chewed. The rest in the box but scattered and cold. Brought them in and warmed them (having learned here that they aren't dead until they're warm and dead.) But no survivors. This is the first time we've ever lost any kits except ones that were undersized and doa or very soon after.

This was Alna's first litter. Should we rebreed her right away? Anything we need to do to help her stop producing milk, to avoid mastitis?

I guess I thought once she had been feeding the kits for a couple days, all was well. If we do breed her again and she kindles should we not leave the kits with her, just take them to her for feeding? I'm disappointed and discouraged and don't even know what I should learn from this--whether it's time to cull or just a first strike and we should try her again.

 

[Lopsided]

Treat her with a couple of mint sprigs a day. I just finished treating a doe for about 4-5 days with that and it worked wonders for her. It also helps with the digestive system.

I would personally treat her with the mint first and wait until her milk dries up. Then once it does I'd say go ahead and breed her. Good luck!

 

[Zass]

I've never had a doe lose kits after feeding them for a few days. Did they have full bellies? Is it possible they died from exposure and she was cleaning up the carcasses?? Predator scare?

Scattered well fed kits are sometimes a sign of the doe sleeping in the box...

 

[Rainey]

I've never had a doe lose kits after feeding them for a few days. Did they have full bellies? Is it possible they died from exposure and she was cleaning up the carcasses?? Predator scare?

Scattered well fed kits are sometimes a sign of the doe sleeping in the box...

That may be it. The day she kindled was the warmest we've had and it stayed warmish for a few days and then has turned colder. I'd thought the drop wasn't enough to worry about since the kits seemed well fed. But if it was cold enough so she decided to sleep in the box, that would make sense of what we found. The kits looked as if they'd been fed, not all wrinkly, but a couple were in the bottom back corners and the rest in a sort of line across the very front edge with no fur over them. I guess with a first time doe and the cold I shouldn't have left them out there overnight. Before all our litters were born in the warmer months when I guess the does wouldn't want to sleep in the nest box. And those were experienced does.

 

[Zass]

It wasn't your fault. It's just one of those hard to predict occurrences.

I've yet to have it happen, but some close friends have. Most breeders are pretty shocked when they see it, as it's almost always a complete surprise, and can happen with both new or experienced does. Feel free to re-breed whenever you think she's ready.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Sorry you lost the litter. I always feel pretty safe after the first couple of days, too.

If she slept in the box, it may be because it is too large.

I actually have a doe right now that has taken to laying in the box, but the kits were far enough back that she didn't smash them. I don't know why, but some does can manage to lay in there without squishing them, and others crush the poor things. The kits are about 12 days old now, so should be safe at this point.

You can try to rebreed her now, but I haven't had much luck trying when they are that far past kindling. The first day or two after they are eager, but mine haven't been responsive very far past that.

Mint will dry up her milk, as Lopsided said. I have also given catnip to a doe that was developing mastitis. Normally my rabbits wont touch it, but she snatched it out of my hands and gobbled it up, so obviously she knew she needed it at the time.

 

[Rainey]

Sorry you lost the litter. I always feel pretty safe after the first couple of days, too.

If she slept in the box, it may be because it is too large.

Can you help with what is an appropriate size. She was 7lb 9oz when we bred her at 7 months. The nest box was one we used for her larger NZW mother.

I actually have a doe right now that has taken to laying in the box, but the kits were far enough back that she didn't smash them. I don't know why, but some does can manage to lay in there without squishing them, and others crush the poor things. The kits are about 12 days old now, so should be safe at this point.

They didn't look really crushed or clawed--just scattered, instead of in a nice clump under fur like they'd been before

You can try to rebreed her now, but I haven't had much luck trying when they are that far past kindling. The first day or two after they are eager, but mine haven't been responsive very far past that.

So if we've missed the first post kindling window, how long should it take for her to be ready? Someone else recommended not trying her until we're sure she's dry

Mint will dry up her milk, as Lopsided said. I have also given catnip to a doe that was developing mastitis. Normally my rabbits wont touch it, but she snatched it out of my hands and gobbled it up, so obviously she knew she needed it at the time.

We've given her mint--dried because it's what we have this time of year--and she ate it right up. We'd been increasing her feed and will go back to a more maintenance diet. Would it help her to dry off if we just gave her hay for a few days or would that be a bad idea?

 

[Zass]

I think the kits dying has more to do with the doe keeping the nest disturbed and preventing them from being able to huddle all together under the fur than actual crushing or smothering. That is just a guess though, as I've had no chance to observe it.

 

[Rainey]

I know everyone has their own criteria for culling, but I'd value the opinion of those with more experience whether this should be a reason to cull or if it was really my error, not bringing the nest box in at night when it was colder and I should try her again and keep a better watch.

 

[Marinea]

I wouldn't cull, personally. She had a good sized litter, was taking care of them, and something happened. Not your fault, or hers. I would chalk it up to one of those things, and give her another try.

What are the dimensions of your nest box? And was she getting in it before she kindled? Did she hang out in it?

Sorry you lost the litter.

 

[Susie570]

I doubt many people would cull for losing one litter. I've seen that must folks use a 'three strikes, you're out' policy. I guess that can be three lost litters, or a combination of things.

 

[Rainey]

I wouldn't cull, personally. She had a good sized litter, was taking care of them, and something happened. Not your fault, or hers. I would chalk it up to one of those things, and give her another try.

What are the dimensions of your nest box? And was she getting in it before she kindled? Did she hang out in it?

Sorry you lost the litter.

The nest box was 12"x18" (exterior, more like 10x16 inside) And no. she wasn't getting inside before she kindled. I knew to watch for that and was pleased to see that she was mostly hanging out on top of the nestbox, outside--not in it--or sitting just outside the front of it. So I thought I didn't need to worry about that. And it was much colder then, the first day we put the box in, but never saw her snugged in it.

 

[Marinea]

To me, it is sounding like something may have scared her. I would treat it as a fluke, and not cull her.

I would also keep an eye out for what may have scared her, just in case it was a new predator in the area.

 

[Rainey]

I don't think it could have been a predator scare. We still have enough snow so we would have been able to see tracks in it coming up to the rabbit shed. And I think probably predators have come around the shed in the almost year we've had it, but they can't get inside and the cages are hung inside it. So I'd think they's be used to hearing things snuffling and scrabbling outside.
We will try breeding her again. Then the question I have, for her, or for the next doe that (assuming she took) is due in about 3 weeks, is whether to leave the nest box out with the doe. Various posts mention bringing the box in and taking it out just for feedings but I'm not clear if that is a seasonal issue or something that's done year round. And i was just wondering if anyone has tried covering the box at night where it is instead of moving it inside. Just to keep the doe out and the kits in. That may be a silly idea and I'd be glad to be told if it is.

Just want to thank everyone who replied with advice or sympathy--it's so helpful to have this forum.

 

[Marinea]

I bring my winter kits inside and take them out twice a day for feeding until they are about two weeks old, or the weather warms. If I notice a doe has kits that have a tendency to get dragged out of the box, I will bring that litter in as well. That's rare, just one doe for me.

I would be hesitant to cover the box in fear that it would freak out the doe and cause her to tear up the nest trying to remove the cover.

 

[Zass]

For me, removing the nestboxes is seasonal. With temps dropping to -20 and below this year, a pulled out kit wouldn't live long enough for me to find and return it.
In most weather, I can usually find them before they chill.

Covering the nestbox and leaving it with the doe probably isn't a good idea, but I remember someone mentioning that they pulled a nestbox and kept it safe in the cage beside the doe.

 

[Rainey]

For me, removing the nestboxes is seasonal. With temps dropping to -20 and below this year, a pulled out kit wouldn't live long enough for me to find and return it.
In most weather, I can usually find them before they chill.

That makes sense to me--if it had stayed really cold I would have brought the nest box in, but then it warmed up here--in the 40's--the day she kindled and stayed above freezing overnight and whenever we checked them the first few days, they were warm and fed so thought they'd be ok. Last year all litters were born in late spring through early fall. I don't have any sense of what the cut-off temp should be for bringing them in

Covering the nestbox and leaving it with the doe probably isn't a good idea, but I remember someone mentioning that they pulled a nestbox and kept it safe in the cage beside the doe.

Find I'm second guessing myself about a lot of things after this set-back. We're not seeing any signs of mastitis and that is good, but I wonder if that means Alna wasn't a good mild producer--even though we found the kits with full bellies for those couple days. And I wonder if the does we're breeding this year are too small--the 2 bred so far were between 7 and 8 pounds when bred. Their SF father is only 7and a half pounds as an adult but their NZ mother was larger (didn't ever weigh her, so hard to handle) so I don't know what weight they ought to be. We got kits to 5 pounds in a reasonable time, given our natural diet, and I hoped this year we might do better with does that were the best of the litters raised that way.
Just hope the next doe kindles, the next litter survives, that the next generations don't just get smaller. At least they're easier to handle.
I'm used to learning from mistakes--just not sure what the lesson is to take from this round with the rabbits. :?

 

[EnglishSpot]

Keep your biggest kits and breed them back to each other. That should start upping the size of your herd, short of bringing in larger fresh blood.

 

[Zass]

but I wonder if that means Alna wasn't a good mild producer

You are reading too much into it. Does do not automatically get mastitis if they stop nursing, even with a bountiful milk supply.
Her body just has a way of taking care of things on it's own.

Bacterial contamination is what causes mastitis, and your doe not showing any sign of it is a good thing. It means your cages are clean and your doe has an immune system that can handle the bacterial exposure she has.