Looks like blue chinchilla, but not..

[PoppyLapine]

I have a baby rabbit in a litter that looks like a broken blue chinchilla, but the inside of the ears are colored and so is around the eyes and nostrils. Is this a real coloring or something just messed up in its genetics. Sire is a broken blue otter and dam is a self blue.
Here's some pics of when it was a couple weeks old next to its broken blue sibling, its not super easy to see in pics, in person is better. It's a little bigger now, I can get more pics if wanted.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have a baby rabbit in a litter that looks like a broken blue chinchilla, but the inside of the ears are colored and so is around the eyes and nostrils. Is this a real coloring or something just messed up in its genetics. Sire is a broken blue otter and dam is a self blue.
Here's some pics of when it was a couple weeks old next to its broken blue sibling, its not super easy to see in pics, in person is better. It's a little bigger now, I can get more pics if wanted.

Sounds like it could be steel, which is dominant but can hide in selfs since it needs an agouti <A> or a tan <a(t)> to be expressed. Steel <E(S)> reduces the agouti markings - so dark ears and nostrils - but leaves banding on the tips of the hairs. Brokens make it harder since you can't look at belly color, and angora complicates things (for me) since the pattern is stretched out along the hair shaft. But a silver-tipped steel can look like a dark chinchilla: there are still bands of color, but they'll all be pushed up to the tips of the hairs.

 

[PoppyLapine]

Sounds like it could be steel, which is dominant but can hide in selfs since it needs an agout <A> or a tan <a(t)> to be expressed. Steel <E(S)> reduces the agouti markings - so dark ears and nostrils - but leaves banding on the tips of the hairs. Brokens make it harder since you can't look at belly color, and angora complicates things (for me) since the pattern is stretched out along the hair shaft. But a silver-tipped steel can look like a dark chinchilla there are still bands of color but they'll all be pushed up to the tips of the hairs.

Ooo, than would be cool. Is there any way to confirm its steel? These are actually my english lops (is steel showable in them). I think I do remember seeing steel further back in one of my breeders pedigree. I'll have to look and see if I'm remembering right.

 

[PoppyLapine]

Here's a few current close up pics, one of the ear and one the hair parted on the colored spot.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Ooo, than would be cool. Is there any way to confirm its steel? These are actually my english lops (is steel showable in them). I think I do remember seeing steel further back in one of my breeders pedigree. I'll have to look and see if I'm remembering right.

I thought those ears looked long for such young bunnies! Yes, steel is showable in EngLops, in either gold or silver tipped, with a base color of black, blue, chocolate, lilac, sable or smoke pearl,

Like other agouti banding, steel takes time to show up in the coat as the fur grows in. My steels start out looking like selfs, then within a few days they look like agoutis (except for the dark ear linings and lack of nostril markings), having pretty distinct banding. But as the hair grows, the bands end up all pushed way up toward the tips, with a much wider area taken up by the undercolor.

Here is the development of gold-tipped steel in a Satin.
2-3 wks (sorry about poor photo quality, but hopefully you can still see the pattern):


Same bunny at 4-5 wks:


Close-up shots of gold-tipped steel guard hairs, in which you can see that the tips aren't actually gold, but having the gold band pushed toward the end of the shaft makes it appear so:

Here's a few current close up pics, one of the ear and one the hair parted on the colored spot.

Yes, that looks like steel to me with that huge amount of undercolor. But the way to really confirm it is to pull a single colored guard hair and lay it on either dark or light paper and look for the banding at the tip. If the hairs are all one color, something else is going on.

 

[PoppyLapine]

I thought those ears looked long for such young bunnies! Yes, steel is showable in EngLops, in either gold or silver tipped, with a base color of black, blue, chocolate, lilac, sable or smoke pearl,

Like other agouti banding, steel takes time to show up in the coat as the fur grows in. My steels start out looking like selfs, then within a few days they look like agoutis (except for the dark ear linings and lack of nostril markings), having pretty distinct banding. But as the hair grows, the bands end up all pushed way up toward the tips, with a much wider area taken up by the undercolor.

Here is the development of gold-tipped steel in a Satin.
2-3 wks (sorry about poor photo quality, but hopefully you can still see the pattern):
View attachment 44183View attachment 44184View attachment 44185

Same bunny at 4-5 wks:
View attachment 44186View attachment 44187View attachment 44188

Close-up shots of gold-tipped steel guard hairs, in which you can see that the tips aren't actually gold, but having the gold band pushed toward the end of the shaft makes it appear so:

View attachment 44189View attachment 44190


Yes, that looks like steel to me with that huge amount of undercolor. But the way to really confirm it is to pull a single colored guard hair and lay it on either dark or light paper and look for the banding at the tip. If the hairs are all one color, something else is going on.

Okay, i plucked some guard hairs and my camera refuses to focus, but I definitely see banding, it's no one color at the tip. And I'm right now looking at my pedigrees and her her great grandfather is a broken blue silver tipped steel, i didn't realize how close that steel was in her genetics, so it makes sense. So, I'd say it safe to say she's is indeed that! I'm going to keep her to grow out, so we'll see if anything crazy changes.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Okay, i plucked some guard hairs and my camera refuses to focus, but I definitely see banding, it's no one color at the tip. And I'm right now looking at my pedigrees and her her great grandfather is a broken blue silver tipped steel, i didn't realize how close that steel was in her genetics, so it makes sense. So, I'd say it safe to say she's is indeed that! I'm going to keep her to grow out, so we'll see if anything crazy changes.

Steel will hide in selfs for as long as you breed them exclusively; when the banding and trim is suppressed by <a>, the steel has no effect. I'd expect that the steel is coming from her self blue dam; in my experience, steel is partially expressed in an otter/marten as what we always called a "tweener." So a blue otter with a steel allele would not look like a proper otter. There are pictures of a steeled otter (tweener) on this thread:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/removing-steel-genetics.37393/#post-363151

 

[PoppyLapine]

Her GGFather is on the dams side, so that makes perfect sense. Im still sifting through pedigrees and found another blue steel. So, here's a brief rabbit family tree of this steel baby. I had gotten 2 blues, Little Princess (just found that her grandfather on her dam's side was steel) and Toby (his father is a broken steel), kept a blue doe from their pairing, Guinevere. Then I bred Guinevere to the broken blue otter, King Arthur, which resulted in this steel baby.

 

[PoppyLapine]

The tweener makes even more sense to. Before I had bred King Arthur to Little Princess and had gotten a very lightly otter (may have been a tweener). Then the first litter King Arthur and Guinevere (this current litter is their 2nd successful litter). They also produced one that looked like a tweener, so I wonder if those were otters espressing steel, I didn't keep them, so can't say how they grew. Slowly these genetics are making sense!

 

[PoppyLapine]

Updated pics of the baby. She is now 9 weeks old, andhas been named Princess Buttercup. Loving how her body is developing. She wasn't keen on posing, but I tried my best.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Updated pics of the baby. She is now 9 weeks old, andhas been named Princess Buttercup. Loving how her body is developing. She wasn't keen on posing, but I tried my best.

I love the depth over her hindquarters! She's a nice looking little doe. Will you be showing her?

 

[PoppyLapine]

I love the depth over her hindquarters! She's a nice looking little doe. Will you be showing her?

Right? She has the nicest body out of the litter.
I'd love to show her, and we do have the AZ state convention coming up next month. I'm thinking on trying to do 1 day (its 3 days long) to get her and maybe some others shown. Though, I have never shown before, so I'm a bit nervous, considering it could be a biggish show.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Right? She has the nicest body out of the litter.
I'd love to show her, and we do have the AZ state convention coming up next month. I'm thinking on trying to do 1 day (its 3 days long) to get her and maybe some others shown. Though, I have never shown before, so I'm a bit nervous, considering it could be a biggish show.

Oh, you should go for it! It's a great way to learn a bunch, and usually to meet some nice people. Tell a few folks you're new and chances are someone will take you under their wing and help you through the day. Some of us love to help new exhibitors get hooked on showing.

If you raise more than one breed (the rabbit in your icon looks like an angora), I'd suggest showing rabbits of only one breed the first time. The biggest headache can be getting your rabbits to the table when their breed and class is called (and getting them off again when their class is done, to keep the show moving). If you have more than one breed, it always seems to work out that they're called to different tables at the same time. Then, even if you manage to get all the rabbits up to the tables, you can't hear the comments on one or the other.

 

[PoppyLapine]

Oh, you should go for it! It's a great way to learn a bunch, and usually to meet some nice people. Tell a few folks you're new and chances are someone will take you under their wing and help you through the day. Some of us love to help new exhibitors get hooked on showing.

If you raise more than one breed (the rabbit in your icon looks like an angora), I'd suggest showing rabbits of only one breed the first time. The biggest headache can be getting your rabbits to the table when their breed and class is called (and getting them off again when their class is done, to keep the show moving). If you have more than one breed, it always seems to work out that they're called to different tables at the same time. Then, even if you manage to get all the rabbits up to the tables, you can't hear the comments on one or the other.

I'm hoping it all works out and I do get to go. I went to my first show, where I was a spectator, in November. Everyone was so nice! I had lots of fun (to much fun, since I ended up with 2 new rabbits, lol).
I have 3 (technically 4) rabbit breeds I raise. That is a great tip about just showing one breed to start! I can see myself getting very flustered before show day even happens, lol!

 

[Lops_of _Bunnies]

Hello! I was wondering if someone could help me with some fur colors on my baby Holland Lops. Parents are a Vm Siamese sable and a sable or blue point. I’m sure they are magpies but not sure if they are maybe blue magpies? One of them is also very creamy colored and has a dark nose. Thanks for any help! I’m very very new to genetics and know just about nothing.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hello! I was wondering if someone could help me with some fur colors on my baby Holland Lops. Parents are a Vm Siamese sable and a sable or blue point. I’m sure they are magpies but not sure if they are maybe blue magpies? One of them is also very creamy colored and has a dark nose. Thanks for any help! I’m very very new to genetics and know just about nothing.

We could help you best if you posted some pictures.

If you breed two sables you're probably going to get more sables. Sable is also called "shaded," so if the body is cream colored and is shaded darker toward the nose (and usually also the ears and feet), that'll probably be sable or sable point. You can also have blue sables, commonly called smoke pearls.

A magpie is a harlequin that has an allele that prevents any orange color from showing, leaving white where the orange would have been, so you have a rabbit that's white with stripes and patches of one dark color. That dark color can be black, blue, chocolate, lilac, sable or seal. The difference between blue magpie and sable magpie is that blue is a smokey gray, while sable usually has a more sepia cast. With the disruption of the colors by the harlequin effects, though, at first it can be trickier than it seems to tell the difference.

We'd love to see photos!

There are some great photo guides to Holland Lop colors on the web. These are my two favorites:
https://hickoryridgehollands.com/holland-lop-color-guide
https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors.shtml

 

[Lops_of _Bunnies]

Sorry couldn’t figure out how to add them!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Sorry couldn’t figure out how to add them!

Those are super helpful! They're nice-looking Hollands - I especially like the head on that doe.

Your buck does look like a VM sable, as you say, and the doe looks like a smoke pearl (aka dilute sable, aka blue sable). I wouldn't think she was smoke pearl point (which is a non-extension blue sable) because her body color is pretty typical for smoke pearl; non-extension colors usually have more of a cream cast to the body color, but some of them can be fairly dark overall, so it is a slight possibility.

Either way, if both parents are sable, that means they have the sable allele in the dominant position at the C locus, notated <c(chl)_>, with the understrike meaning you can't be sure whether the second allele is himalayan <c(h)> or REW <c>. It must be one of those because sable is recessive to full-color <C> and chinchilla <c(chd)> so those can't be there, and if the second spot was another sable allele, the rabbit would be seal <c(chl)c(chl)>, which would look almost self black (or almost self blue, for the doe).

To summarize, the C locus has the following known alleles, in order of descending dominance. Even though there is some co-dominance, generally a more dominant allele will cover up/hide the affects of a more recessive allele.
C – full-color: all pigments allowed to show
c(chd) – chinchilla: suppresses most/all pheomelanin (yellow pigment that makes red/orange tones) production in fur
c(chl) – sable/shaded: suppresses all pheomelanin, interferes with eumelanin (the pigment that makes dark tones) so that black appears sepia and eyes have a ruby glow; short hair less affected so rabbit is “shaded.” Two copies of this allele result in a "seal" which is such dark sepia as to appear nearly black (or blue, chocolate or lilac), and the shading is extremely subtle.
c(h) – himalayan: suppresses all pheomelanin production, and is temperature-sensitive so eumelanin is generally produced only on extremities; prevents all pigmentation in eyes
c – REW: all pigment production is suppressed in skin, fur and eyes. A REW rabbit still has all other color and pattern genes, but they cannot be expressed if the individual has two copies of this allele.

So, with your buck and doe both being <c(chl)_>, there is no chance that any of their babies could have a full-color <C> to make a blue point (see below for more details on that variety). They could make blue sable (aka smoke pearl), or blue sable magpie (aka smoke pearl magpie), if the buck carried an allele for dilute that could pair up with one from the doe. I'm not sure, off the top of my head, why one kit looks nearly (though not perfectly) white and one looks so much more creamy... The harlequin allele can disrupt color distribution in surprising ways, and I don't have any direct experience with the meeting of harlequin and sable. But the sable (aka shaded) allele would explain the darker nose.

Some confusion can come from the common names of the different varieties: even though they're both called "point," blue point and sable point/smoke pearl point come from very different genetic combinations.

"Blue point" is actually a blue himalayan, so it requires certain alleles on the C and D loci. It needs two dilute alleles <dd> at the D locus, and a himalayan allele <c(h)> in the dominant position on the C locus. They're usually self, and are black-based, so the whole notation would be <aaB_c(h)_ddE_>. The body is white, with the himi allele restricting color to the extremities.

"Sable point" or its dilute version "smoke pearl point" is a non-extension sable - it comes from a combination of two different alleles: one on the C locus and one on E locus. It needs a sable in the dominant position <c(chl)_> and two non-extension alleles <ee> at the E locus. They are also selfs and black-based, so <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee> for sable point, or <aaB_c(chl)_ddee> for smoke pearl point. Even though they can be very pale, their bodies aren't white, exactly, but lighter color shaded towards the darker extremities.