Looking for opinions: Mostly Flemish?

[TKT]

I bought three young meat rabbits as 3/4 New Zealand, 1/4 Flemish, and I'm starting to suspect they are more like half Flemish... They are all wonderful rabbits, really good personalities on the two youngest. Really big back feet! The oldest dark buck is 10 months, the other two are a fawn? buck and dark doe both around 7 months. I'm sorry I have not yet been able to pose any of them. I'm just looking for better eyes than mine. I am new and learning everything I can. What I see is smaller more hare like? head (on the lighter buck who is shown with a black New Zealand doe), huge ears, big back feet, and a mandolin shape. The older buck (shown with a red New Zealand doe) is very skittish in temperament but still amenable to petting, which I believe is because he wasn't handled and I got him at 5 months, and the two younger are very sweet and calmer. Photos are oldest buck, young buck, doe.

The doe did something that injured her back, or maybe it was the time my husband got her out of her cage by putting his hands around her chest and not supporting her back end and she was kicking. After that she had trouble using her right hind leg, but she was able to hop up onto the roof of her hide after a week or so. I've been putting her out into an exercise pen in the yard and yesterday she was bopping around and jumping up and doing little binkies. That leg will still be stiff sometimes if she's lying down for a while and gets up.

Does that disqualify her from being able to be bred? I would like to breed her to the darker buck for size. She is an absolute doll and comes to me when I call her for head rubs. The older buck is 12 lb, the younger is about 10, the doe is 9 and a little ribby, so I have been supplementing her with a little extra pellet, oats, and BOSS. She is the doe that I want to try a wormer on.

 

[Mckatie]

I would give her a go if her leg is just stiff from being too still. Sounds like getting out exercising helps her. She doesn't seem to be having a major pain issue. Wait until her weight is where it looks good. Then if she is moving well and looking healthy... give her a go.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I bought three young meat rabbits as 3/4 New Zealand, 1/4 Flemish, and I'm starting to suspect they are more like half Flemish... They are all wonderful rabbits, really good personalities on the two youngest. Really big back feet! The oldest dark buck is 10 months, the other two are a fawn? buck and dark doe both around 7 months. I'm sorry I have not yet been able to pose any of them. I'm just looking for better eyes than mine. I am new and learning everything I can. What I see is smaller more hare like? head (on the lighter buck who is shown with a black New Zealand doe), huge ears, big back feet, and a mandolin shape. The older buck (shown with a red New Zealand doe) is very skittish in temperament but still amenable to petting, which I believe is because he wasn't handled and I got him at 5 months, and the two younger are very sweet and calmer. Photos are oldest buck, young buck, doe.

The doe did something that injured her back, or maybe it was the time my husband got her out of her cage by putting his hands around her chest and not supporting her back end and she was kicking. After that she had trouble using her right hind leg, but she was able to hop up onto the roof of her hide after a week or so. I've been putting her out into an exercise pen in the yard and yesterday she was bopping around and jumping up and doing little binkies. That leg will still be stiff sometimes if she's lying down for a while and gets up.

Does that disqualify her from being able to be bred? I would like to breed her to the darker buck for size. She is an absolute doll and comes to me when I call her for head rubs. The older buck is 12 lb, the younger is about 10, the doe is 9 and a little ribby, so I have been supplementing her with a little extra pellet, oats, and BOSS. She is the doe that I want to try a wormer on.

They do look like Flemish crosses, but honestly, when you start crossbreeding you can't predict what the kits will look like, especially once you're at the F2 generation or later. Kits can look like either of the parent breeds, a combination of both, or like neither one but a different breed entirely.

The ears, feet (and that tail!) of your rabbits do have that Flemish look, while the weights say New Zealand. Neither breed should have a hare-like head. The younger buck has what looks like a NZ head to me, which looks small compared to his oversized ears and body. Flemish heads are supposed to be large and broad, moreso in bucks, and they are so massive that they often get that hound-dog-droopy-eye thing going. By the way, the younger buck looks like a steel, although not one meeting the Flemish standard - he is a gold-tipped steel, aka steel agouti, whereas the Flemish SOP recognizes for Steel Gray, which is a silver-tipped steel, aka steel chinchilla. (NZ SOP of course recognizes either, although I have found that NZWs often do carry steel and/or chinchilla.)

As to the injured doe, you probably don't want delicate rabbits, but if your doe was hurt by poor handling, I wouldn't immediately count that against her. All rabbits are vulnerable in regard to their backs, and especially large and long rabbits. But that is one of the risks that comes with breeding Flemish into a meat breed; sometimes the rabbits end up with heavier bone than you want in a meat rabbit, but other times you get a very large rabbit with the medium bone of a meat breed, and you start seeing issues like deformed limb development or a tendency toward injuries, because their frame cannot properly carry their size and weight. I'm not saying that's what going on with your doe - 9lbs isn't all that big - but it's something to keep an eye out for.

I'd give her a while to recover completely, which might take a few months. I had a Champagne doe that got injured when someone wrenched her leg while pulling her out of a carrier; she favored the leg for so long that I thought her show career was over, but after what seemed like a really long time (maybe more than 2 months?), she looks great again. Anyway, I agree with @Mckatie - I'd get the doe back into condition as far as her weight and movement before challenging her by breeding her. And yes, it sounds like she's a good candidate for Safeguard.

My goodness, is that black doe (behind the steel buck) ever ready to be bred!

 

[TKT]

Thank you both! I figured I would try to get that injured doe out at least every other day for exercise. I was pleased to see how well she was doing! You're right that the younger buck, the lighter one (he is the steel?) probably just looks to me like he has a refined head because of the size of his body, and the mandolin shape. That little black New Zealand doe is his girlfriend, they quarantined together from 2 months to 3 months, and then I separated them. They groomed each other and were best buddies. I think she was very happy to see him again! He got like five fall offs with her before I took pity on her, lol. He was so sweet and tender with her and groomed her a bunch. I think she was a little bit more like how the heck did you grow so fast?!

I wasn't sure about Flemish being crossed in but I liked the look of the rabbits, but of course I didn't know exactly what I was looking for. The more I learn and the more I look, the better my eye gets. But I do love their temperaments. If they don't work I have pure New Zealands and American Blues.

 

[Mckatie]

Thank you both! I figured I would try to get that injured doe out at least every other day for exercise. I was pleased to see how well she was doing! You're right that the younger buck, the lighter one (he is the steel?) probably just looks to me like he has a refined head because of the size of his body, and the mandolin shape. That little black New Zealand doe is his girlfriend, they quarantined together from 2 months to 3 months, and then I separated them. They groomed each other and were best buddies. I think she was very happy to see him again! He got like five fall offs with her before I took pity on her, lol. He was so sweet and tender with her and groomed her a bunch. I think she was a little bit more like how the heck did you grow so fast?!

I wasn't sure about Flemish being crossed in but I liked the look of the rabbits, but of course I didn't know exactly what I was looking for. The more I learn and the more I look, the better my eye gets. But I do love their temperaments. If they don't work I have pure New Zealands and American Blues.

I have a friend that has 3 flemish, a litter of flemish rex cross and a rex line. Her and her family seem to like them. Her NZ line is 2-3 months old. She says the flemish do need more space. Bigger cages and they have fenced off runs.

 

[TKT]

I have a friend that has 3 flemish, a litter of flemish rex cross and a rex line. Her and her family seem to like them. Her NZ line is 2-3 months old. She says the flemish do need more space. Bigger cages and they have fenced off runs.

Yes now that I've looked at pictures of older pure Flemish, I can see the big blocky heads. The black buck with the gold tips (with the red New Zealand doe) is 10 months old and 11+ lb. So he is sized a little bit more like a New Zealand.

I had read so many glowing reviews about putting a little bit of Flemish crossed into New Zealand or Californian for meat rabbits, also was aware that they grow bone first and are heavier bone. But (supposedly) if you're lucky, after a couple or more generations of selection you get more meat and lighter bone, which of course as Alaska Satin noted can cause issues if it's too light.

Sort of like what breeders did to the American Quarterhorse. Make it look like a bloody beef cow on the original finer bones, and put tiny feet on it so now they're crippled at age two. Plus breed on a neck that can't lift its head up. It's ridiculous. They used to be astonishing and now they are ruined.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

I'd have guessed flemish or cross just based on the pics. I once got two flemish does and was going to cross them to Californian buck. They were bottomless pits and still hungry. I was milking two full sized goats at the time and the flemish were literally eating as much as the goats. And still seemed hungry. Huge nope from me. I sold them to someone wanting flemish specifically.

 

[TKT]

I think they're gorgeous but I can't make room for rabbits that big. These are supposed to be one quarter Flemish and I've bred each buck to a New Zealand doe. They are such pretty boys (to me), and I wanted to see what I would get with only 1/8 Flemish. With two different sires and two different does I can then breed the kits for 1/16th. Please don't laugh, I do have my breeding rabbits book but I do not have a good genetics book yet! I am open to suggestions! I'm just going by a lot of posts I've read which are probably out of date that said it's a nice cross when it's a smaller percentage. Also when I got them all I had were two mediocre American Blues and I was having such a hard time finding rabbits. I always figured I could eat them but of course now I'm fond of them and they are supposed to be my part of my breeding stock. They are doing fine on one cup of pellet a day and timothy hay.

I have a feeling I will eventually do just straight New Zealand and straight American Blue. I really like the lighter buck, he is just a sweetheart. If I end up replacing them I would actually like to find them good homes instead of eating them. I also really like the doe, she is the sweetest and friendliest. When I sit with her in the X-Pen when I have her out, she comes up and lays against me and wants head rubs.