LGD with rabbits

[Addisonsminirexs]

I have been having problems with predators (mostly racoons and coyotes) I have tried many things like traps. I am think about getting a livestock guardian dog (Great Pyrenees) What do you guys think ???

 

[michaels4gardens]

I have tried a lot of different ways to remedy this problem,
the only one that worked great, was a predator proof enclosure.

The guard dog thing "worked OK" as long as everything was inside of a good fence...

 

[Zass]

Only get a pyranees (or other lgd) if you are ready and really want to be the owner of a very BIG DOG.

Yes, it's a dog with a job, but it will still have all the needs and expenses of a pet dog, but often more because of it's size and coat.

Pyrenees require a lot of brushing and grooming (seasonally, but it's still a big job,) expect to have to deal with mud covered mats of fur if you miss brushings during the shedding season. They will definitey get mats behind their ears that will need trimmed. They still need to be trained to have their nails cut regularly, and they are notorious roamers if not fenced in well. You also have to consider the entire range of canine behavioral problems that can come with any dog.

It might dig, chew and destroy things, it might bark incessantly, or like my friend's pyr, it might eat livestock.
If it's not spayed or neutered, it may display sex based behavioral problems.
My friend's is a goat dog from a dam that was raised with goats, and it doesn't eat her goats, but it does occasionally eat her ducks. :shrug:

Personally, I'd also be afraid a rabbit protection dog could become very bored with caged charges.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have a rabbit protector, but I've been on livestock groups on other sites, and there are those who chant "get and lgd, get an lgd!!" for everything. (Many are small time breeders who wanna sell puppies.)
Someone's gotta be the person to point out that any "trend" that involves dogs doesn't always play out well for the dog.

Before you bring home a puppy, consider what your plan is for that puppy if it doesn't "work out" as an lgd. Will you sell it as a pet, when it probably won't be housebroke or have other house manners? Will you foist it off on someone else to train? What about in 8 years when the dog is too old to be useful, or if it develops hip dysplasia or another expensive ailment?

On the other hand, I also don't consider trapping a very useful method of predator control. One could try to trap and relocate or kill every predator in your county (they will keep coming back though.) In the end, it's basically leaving your livestock out as a buffet, and generally only reacting AFTER you take losses. I never could wrap my head around the usefulness of that.

For mine, I just build in ways that predators cannot enter. Hardware cloth where predators can reach in, double layers of wire if I have to. Build once well, and spare yourself years of fuss. The $1000 you would otherwise spend on the dog (plus veterinary care) can be spent on materials, and actually last much longer than the lifespan of the lgd if you build well.

Now, if you just really want a big dog and will love it and brush it and care for it even if it doesn't give a fluff about the rabbits, then by all means, get one. I love my caucasian ovcharka, even tho she's never going to be a livestock guardian, she guards the family well.

 

[Preitler]

For guarding rabbits in cages, hutches or pens I don't think you need a LGD. Those dogs are bred to live with the lifestock when brought up accordingly, to handle day-to-day life on their own. Not bred for being pets. Those I read about are more for fending off wolfes and bears when no humans are around to interfere. Here there's some discussion because some romantic city dwellers strive to bring back wolves and bears in bigger numbers, those who have to live with the consequences are not happy about it.

To protect objects like cages or hutches a lot of other breeds, or farm mutts are well suited, I would think even rather small ones although I can't tell how viciuos your wildlife is.

I stick to wildlife cameras, motion sensor alarms and traps, and I have just built a very quiet .480" 120J PCP air rifle. But I only have to deal with rats, marten and foxes.

Even my neighbours dog did a good job at raising the neighbourhood if any critter came too close, including cats and crows:

 

[Zass]

I believe all breeds can be kept as companion animals if they are trained consistently and well as pups, but that doesn't mean everyone is up for the task! LGD breeds certainly aren't most people's first choice for suburban backyards! Some are best kept only if you have passion and dedication (and space!) for those breeds.

I keep an lgd breed, but I'm also a dog trainer, and work with other trainers that I can seek advice from. What may seem like easy canine behavioral problems for me could be insurmountable issues for someone else.
I'm testing mine to see how she does with service dog training. So far, she's coming along nicely.
Nonstop barking is a huge issue most people seem to have with caucasians, but I've been very careful to shape that behavior from it's very onset, and never give her a chance to develop it "naturally." Basically, she's never been given enough alone time outside to start barking and continue without redirection or correction. The first little "woof" each time has been redirected into a more positive (for town life) behavior.
Most of the people in the ovcharka groups I'm in are either hopelessly frustrated by it (if they weren't prepared,) fatalistically accepting, or are lucky, and live in an area where they can actually just be happy that their dogs bark nonstop at everything like proper property guardians.

Noise ordinances are tricky in a lot of places. I have an acre zoned agricultural at the new house, but dog barking still violates ordinances.

Eastern and western LDGs are worked a bit differently. The (caucasian and central asian) ovcharkas are said to bond with their handler and family first, livestock secondary, and most live as mobile family and property guardians. They are said to be very, very affectionate with their people. A good choice where human predators are scarier than the 4 footed variety. :|

Western LGDs are taught to bond only with livestock and live with herds.. This can lead to tricky situations in many parts of the US, where there are sometimes laws that state that you can't have a matted up dog outside on your property 24/7.. So, you still have enough of a relationship to be able to handle your dog for grooming and care to ensure that no one reports you or "rescues" your dog. Some places will not even recognize them as working animals, will require them to be brought inside a shelter when the weather gets too cold or warm.

I feel they become most cost effective when used by someone with many acres and valuable hoofed animals to protect. Preferably somewhere far away from nosy neighbors and "activists."

Preitler, as for predators in much of the US, well.. We have plenty. :lol: Raccoons, opossums, weasels, fisher, foxes, coyotes, hawks , eagles, bears, rats, and stray dogs make up the bulk of what most of us deal with, plus a few AR nuts on occasion. Some areas have wolves too, but it's mostly restricted to the north. Most of those critters will avoid any kind of dog or direct confrontation with people. I think the stray dogs are the most dangerous, but there are less here then there used to be in the past. Many places still allow you to defend your livestock with deadly force if necessary.

The birds of prey are protected by the migratory bird treaty act, however, and are touchier to deal with. You can't trap or shoot them, another good reason to just build predator proof as possible if you have smaller animals.

 

[michaels4gardens]

My opinion,
When I lived in the mountains of Southern Utah on 120 acres,
I raised milk goats, a couple milk cows, chickens, and rabbits, and had greenhouses .
I used Pyrenees, Akbash , and Saint Bernard for livestock /guard dogs.

The pyrenees did bark a lot, and were best kept in areas away from the house.
They also have very precise and rigid opinions about their job description, and who is,
and who is not ,a part of "their family". This included stray children, and pets.
They were not good to have around areas that "visitors" might wander into unaccompanied
by myself, as I was the only one they recognised as Alpha.

The Akbash I had were a little more flexible in adjustments to job description ,
very independent, but too high strung for guarding small areas and fenced yards...

The Saints i had,[who were exceptionally smart for Saints]
and especially Saint /Pyrenees crosses, were the best all around protectors.
they could accept new animals, people [and children] I introduced to them.
They could make good decisions about what to kill , and what to "scare off".
As a team, they were able to handle lions and bears, as well as the all "normal predators"..
They could be content with laying in the shade for days, and not get anxious..

The negative.. these are all big dogs ,
they are capable of killing almost anything in seconds.. the S/P crosses mentioned above
would often exceed 200 lbs.
The feed bill is not small, and the time commitment it takes to work
with the "young dogs", is a big part of the daily schedule. [at least an hour a day]
[ Once they are "adult" ,and their behavior is acceptable, they can be ignored for days at a time]..
If you fail to work/train/bond with these dogs from weaning to adult,
the result is often disastrous for everyone concerned..

 

[Mini Lop Fan]

I have a Pyrenees Rough Collie mix LGD and am very happy with him. He is smaller than a pyrenees, only 44 pounds!

However, be warned, the Pyrenees breed are very stubborn and independent. I think the rough collie in him makes him much more trainable, but if he thinks we or the animals are in danger, he will disobey stay or come (@Zass, if you have any thoughts on reinforcing and making him listen, I would very much appreciate it!).

Early socialization with other dogs for them as puppies is a MUST, as they tend to be pushy. He is also very much a barker, but he adores all the animals and is extremely sweet with them--even the rabbits! The few times I have had rabbits escape from their cage, he has tracked them down for me.

 

[Zass]

I have a Pyrenees Rough Collie mix LGD and am very happy with him. He is smaller than a pyrenees, only 44 pounds!

However, be warned, the Pyrenees breed are very stubborn and independent. I think the rough collie in him makes him much more trainable, but if he thinks we or the animals are in danger, he will disobey stay or come (@Zass, if you have any thoughts on reinforcing and making him listen, I would very much appreciate it!).

Early socialization with other dogs for them as puppies is a MUST, as they tend to be pushy. He is also very much a barker, but he adores all the animals and is extremely sweet with them--even the rabbits! The few times I have had rabbits escape from their cage, he has tracked them down for me.

That is an interesting cross! Most Pyrs hover around 100 lbs, he sounds adorable.
Stubborn sounds about right, they are supposed to be able to make their own decisions, and have a way of wondering who we are to tell them what to do all the time. :lol:
The combination of lgd stubbornness and collie intelligence can make for quite the challenge. You gotta find what they really love to work for.

It can be very very difficult to override that protective instinct. Cause I mean, treats are great and all, but keeping his charges safe is probably the most important thing in his entire world.
Toys might help, if he's the playful type, but then again, he might only work when you have the toy.

To get you started, I would say practice, practice, practice when there is no threat present, but expand it to as many different areas and situations as you can. Often dogs will listen better inside, and act like there are totally different rules outside or in other environments. Expand the environments he's expected to work in to as many as you can. Eventually, he should just be in the habit of responding anywhere. Once he does it well with just you, try with a friend, and eventually, a friend's dog. Continue adding and mastering new distractions.

It would take fairly rigorous training to get him to actually stay back if he thinks you are in any true danger, I'm afraid, but that should get you pointed in the right direction.

 

[Mini Lop Fan]

Thank you for that advice Zass! Been trying to figure out what drives him most, and it is definitely our safety. Treats and toys are great, but he will completely ignore them if he thinks we are in danger. I have found though, that if I tell him to "look at me" and get him to give me undivided attention before the "threat" comes, he responds, if not great, better. I am trying to figure out how to capitalize on this, but I haven't come up with anything. Maybe just making him focus on me for longer and longer increments of time?

The combination of lgd stubbornness and collie intelligence can make for quite the challenge.

No kidding! But it makes me feel better about the fact I have only been able to teach the basics (sit, lay, come, etc) especially after hearing the troubles other Pyr owners have. Another difficulty is their short-attention span. To get enough exercise during play-time, I usually go through 3+ toys to keep his mind engaged.

Sorry, I really should have just made a new post. :lol:

 

[Zass]

Thank you for that advice Zass! Been trying to figure out what drives him most, and it is definitely our safety. Treats and toys are great, but he will completely ignore them if he thinks we are in danger. I have found though, that if I tell him to "look at me" and get him to give me undivided attention before the "threat" comes, he responds, if not great, better. I am trying to figure out how to capitalize on this, but I haven't come up with anything. Maybe just making him focus on me for longer and longer increments of time?

Sorry, I really should have just made a new post. :lol:

Absolutely, "look at me" and "Leave it" are commands all dogs should know, between the two, you should be able to direct his focus better. What does he usually consider to be threatening? We should probably just make a new thread.