Kit colors and Palamino buck?

[MelC]

Hi All! A year into owning rabbits, only beginning to breed. A few things I'm possibly interested in. "Red" bunnies. We like red heads, red chickens, red flowers, rubies, etc...it would fit to breed some red bunnies. I have an orange harlequin from my adopted litter last year. And the buck seems to have orange and the one orange kit....could I darken that somehow?

Now these little black bunnies all have a pattern similar to each other. Is that otter? Or? The coloration of the light area is whiter on two and light brown on one.

Anyways, any identifying help would be appreciated. I've been learning a bit about alleles and making lots of notes but it can be hard to pin point things when I have little experience with rabbits.

Here are the parents and our first born here babies. The doe's mother MAY be a black mini-rex (there were a similiar mix in her nest last year to this one..black, white, orange, grey) I own and her father is the same buck seen here. Two kits in that litter were adopted prior to me owning her so unsure.

The doe when she was younger for better pic, she is now camera shy.
The doe with her mini.


The buck, line bred to daughter above. Was told he was Palamino? Is that a breed?

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Just naming off what I think the colors look like in the order of the pictures
Doe & Kit - Chinchilla
Orange/Smutty Orange?
Black Otter/Marten
REW or BEW (depends on eye color)
Black Otter/Marten
Fawn
Black Otter/Marten
Chinchilla

 

[MelC]

Just naming off what I think the colors look like in the order of the pictures
Doe & Kit - Chinchilla
Orange/Smutty Orange?
Black Otter/Marten
REW or BEW (depends on eye color)
Black Otter/Marten
Fawn
Black Otter/Marten
Chinchilla

The white has dark eyes. He has grey on his nose and will most likely be smudgy with colors...I have a young buck I saved from the last litter because I thought he was a BEW but colors showed up darker over time. Same father.

 

[judymac]

The white has dark eyes.

That goes well with the doe being a chinchilla, the kit appears to be an ermine, which is chinchilla plus orange/fawn. Imagine all of the rabbit colors coming from combinations of two pigment factories: one for the dark colors (black and chocolate and their dilute shades blue and lilac), and the other for the yellow tones (cream, fawn, orange and red--names change with the breed). Full color rabbits are the dominant choice on the 'C' gene, where both pigment factories are available for full color. This would include colors like your palomino buck (most breeds would call this 'orange', an agouti + full color + orange ( a recessive on the 'E' gene). The other options on the 'C' gene all have reduced amounts of color.

Chinchilla is the next option down, recessive to full color. In chinchilla, the dark color factory works fine, but the orange factory is mostly shut down. Where a full color rabbit would have orange, a chinchilla can't produce that color, and pearly white takes its place. In the case of an orange rabbit, everything looks white when it also carries chinchilla. The eyes are still dark, and any dark ticking will remain, but the main color is just off-white. The color is called ermine, or frosty, or fawn chinchilla, depending on breed (and where in the world you live.)

Your question was how to get red in your rabbits. Chinchilla isn't going to help you toward that goal, as chinchilla can't produce orange/red shades. So, you're going to want to save the orange (palomino color) kits toward your goal. Red is simply orange plus one more color modifier, called 'rufus'. Rufus makes things redder. You're going to need to get a rabbit with red color to produce your own reds. New Zealand Red, Thrianta, or red versions of any other breed will do, depending on what you're breeding for. Choose the reddest rabbit you can find, and then choose the reddest offspring in each generation.

Red is a cumulative color, think of it as a handful of marbles, some yellow, some red, instead of a single gene. A rabbit with all yellow marbles will have a yellow/orange/fawn coat. A rabbit with all red marbles will have a dark mahogany red coat. Most rabbits will have a mix--the more red marbles, the redder the coat. So, for a good red, you're going to have to select the reddest kits to breed.

 

[MelC]

That goes well with the doe being a chinchilla, the kit appears to be an ermine, which is chinchilla plus orange/fawn. Imagine all of the rabbit colors coming from combinations of two pigment factories: one for the dark colors (black and chocolate and their dilute shades blue and lilac), and the other for the yellow tones (cream, fawn, orange and red--names change with the breed). Full color rabbits are the dominant choice on the 'C' gene, where both pigment factories are available for full color. This would include colors like your palomino buck (most breeds would call this 'orange', an agouti + full color + orange ( a recessive on the 'E' gene). The other options on the 'C' gene all have reduced amounts of color.

Chinchilla is the next option down, recessive to full color. In chinchilla, the dark color factory works fine, but the orange factory is mostly shut down. Where a full color rabbit would have orange, a chinchilla can't produce that color, and pearly white takes its place. In the case of an orange rabbit, everything looks white when it also carries chinchilla. The eyes are still dark, and any dark ticking will remain, but the main color is just off-white. The color is called ermine, or frosty, or fawn chinchilla, depending on breed (and where in the world you live.)

Your question was how to get red in your rabbits. Chinchilla isn't going to help you toward that goal, as chinchilla can't produce orange/red shades. So, you're going to want to save the orange (palomino color) kits toward your goal. Red is simply orange plus one more color modifier, called 'rufus'. Rufus makes things redder. You're going to need to get a rabbit with red color to produce your own reds. New Zealand Red, Thrianta, or red versions of any other breed will do, depending on what you're breeding for. Choose the reddest rabbit you can find, and then choose the reddest offspring in each generation.

Red is a cumulative color, think of it as a handful of marbles, some yellow, some red, instead of a single gene. A rabbit with all yellow marbles will have a yellow/orange/fawn coat. A rabbit with all red marbles will have a dark mahogany red coat. Most rabbits will have a mix--the more red marbles, the redder the coat. So, for a good red, you're going to have to select the reddest kits to breed.

Thank you for the suggestion. The red thing is really for fun and far secondary to temperament and grow out size for possible meat kits. I'd like to get some good pelt quality as well to be able to use as much of each animal as possible. But I do think learning about the colors and how to breed for physical traits is very interesting and if I can do it all...
My child isn't old enough but we hope to tag along with a friend to a 4H show/rabbit show nearby soon. I'll keep my eyes open.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hi All! A year into owning rabbits, only beginning to breed. A few things I'm possibly interested in. "Red" bunnies. We like red heads, red chickens, red flowers, rubies, etc...it would fit to breed some red bunnies. I have an orange harlequin from my adopted litter last year. And the buck seems to have orange and the one orange kit....could I darken that somehow?

Now these little black bunnies all have a pattern similar to each other. Is that otter? Or? The coloration of the light area is whiter on two and light brown on one.

It looks to me like the first black bunny is an otter and the second two are martens (which are basically otters with the addition of chinchilla genes that remove the tan coloration). Otters have a lot of silver/white areas that are edged with tan; martens don't get the tan edging.

View attachment 35235
The buck, line bred to daughter above. Was told he was Palamino? Is that a breed?

Yes, there is a breed called the Palomino, which comes in two varieties, golden and lynx. They're pretty decent-sized rabbits at 8-11 pounds. They're relatively uncommon, and are currently on the Livestock Conservancy's Watch list of heritage breeds. Your rabbit is similar in color to a Palomino, but that doesn't mean that's what he is. Unless you have a pedigree, you won't really ever know for sure.
Here are some sites with more information about Palomino rabbits:
https://arba.net/palomino/https://www.palominorabbits.org/https://livestockconservancy.org/heritage-breeds/heritage-breeds-list/palomino-rabbit/

 

[MelC]

It looks to me like the first black bunny is an otter and the second two are martens (which are basically otters with the addition of chinchilla genes that remove the tan coloration). Otters have a lot of silver/white areas that are edged with tan; martens don't get the tan edging.


Yes, there is a breed called the Palomino, which comes in two varieties, golden and lynx. They're pretty decent-sized rabbits at 8-11 pounds. They're relatively uncommon, and are currently on the Livestock Conservancy's Watch list of heritage breeds. Your rabbit is similar in color to a Palomino, but that doesn't mean that's what he is. Unless you have a pedigree, you won't really ever know for sure.
Here are some sites with more information about Palomino rabbits:
https://arba.net/palomino/https://www.palominorabbits.org/https://livestockconservancy.org/heritage-breeds/heritage-breeds-list/palomino-rabbit/

Thank you for sharing the info, I'll check it out. Explains why I rarely hear/see it mentioned. The person I got him from had no reason to fib as I was taking them all for free but who knows about where he was before that. His personality and size are winners for sure. He's also a gentleman with the ladies

Now a couple days older, two of the black buns have tannish, one a bit darker than the other. So most likely two otters and a marten. Watching a course on genetics now, five pages of notes deep, lol.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you for sharing the info, I'll check it out. Explains why I rarely hear/see it mentioned. The person I got him from had no reason to fib as I was taking them all for free but who knows about where he was before that. His personality and size are winners for sure. He's also a gentleman with the ladies

Yes, sometimes people call a rabbit a particular breed because it really looks like that breed, or because someone else told them, who was told by yet anther person, who guessed... A breed like the Palomino - which is a commercial type breed that is mostly distinguished by its color, which can be found in many other breeds and crossbreeds - is in my opinion only a sure thing if you have records to prove it.

On the other hand, while the ARBA SOP (Standard of Perfection) describes purebred rabbits, there is that old saying, "If it looks like duck and quacks like a duck, you might as well call it a duck." If your buck breeds true for type and color, and you keep good records, you could reasonably call them purebred Palominos in three generations.

Now a couple days older, two of the black buns have tannish, one a bit darker than the other. So most likely two otters and a marten. Watching a course on genetics now, five pages of notes deep, lol.

Some very good resources for rabbit coat colors are listed below, which I still use for reference after decades of dealing with genetics. They work well together.

ABC - A Book About Bunny Colors
https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/ABC-About-Bunny-Colors-p/bks107.htmThis is a paperback book that really lays things out in an orderly way for beginners, and I still find myself referring to it, because it is so well-laid-out.

An Illustrated Guide to Rabbit Coat Color Genetics​

An Illustrated Guide to Rabbit Coat Color Genetics* [Mink Hollow Rabbitry]
Fantastic coat color site with comprehensive photos of both whole-rabbit surface color and looking "into" the fur. It focuses on rex fur, which because of its structure makes colors look slightly different than they do in normal fur.

Holland Lop Color Guide​

https://hickoryridgehollands.com/holland-lop-color-guideThis is an outstanding chart grouped by genetic code and illustrated by lots of examples of colors on Holland Lops (normal fur), including color development from kit to adult. Hollands come in just about every color so there aren't many that aren't shown here.

Coat Color Photo Matrix​

http://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtmlThis is another excellent Holland site, and it organizes the colors sequentially according to base color, pattern, etc.