Just weaned a litter and doe is VERY thin

[TKT]

My 1 year old American Blue doe had seven kits, and did really well with them. I weaned them at 7 weeks because they just wouldn't leave her alone. She is VERY thin. I'm giving her (and have been giving her all along while lactating) oats and black oil sunflower seeds. She's not eating very much. She had free choice pellets and timothy all along as well. It's been a week and I don't see much difference in her condition. I can still feel her ribs. I had taken her out because the kits were climbing all over her and I felt they were competing with her for food even though I had multiple bowls that were always full. She also did not feel like she had much milk to offer them.

Any ideas?

I was debating if I should worm her, I'm going to worm another skinny doe because she had a round of ear mites that look like they're gone, but had come back again one time already. That one had a back injury and one leg is weaker than the other. She is also on the thin side even though she's well fed. I would like to get her condition up to try to breed her. If I can't I will have to cull her.

But I am very concerned about the American Blue doe, because she is a total sweetheart and also it would be very hard for me to replace her.

 

[Alaska Satin]

My 1 year old American Blue doe had seven kits, and did really well with them. I weaned them at 7 weeks because they just wouldn't leave her alone. She is VERY thin. I'm giving her (and have been giving her all along while lactating) oats and black oil sunflower seeds. She's not eating very much. She had free choice pellets and timothy all along as well. It's been a week and I don't see much difference in her condition. I can still feel her ribs. I had taken her out because the kits were climbing all over her and I felt they were competing with her for food even though I had multiple bowls that were always full. She also did not feel like she had much milk to offer them.

Any ideas?

I was debating if I should worm her, I'm going to worm another skinny doe because she had a round of ear mites that look like they're gone, but had come back again one time already. That one had a back injury and one leg is weaker than the other. She is also on the thin side even though she's well fed. I would like to get her condition up to try to breed her. If I can't I will have to cull her.

But I am very concerned about the American Blue doe, because she is a total sweetheart and also it would be very hard for me to replace her.

My approach would be to give her Safeguard (fenbendazole), Benebac or some sort of herbivore probiotic, and Critical Care for a while, in addition to constant fresh water and her pellets, hay, oats and BOSS. You might have to water down the Critical Care and give it by syringe if she doesn't want to eat it, but it will give her body extra help. Whether her body can take advantage of the help or not is hard to say, if she is off her feed, but the Benebac might help her feel better. I've found that parsley can be an appetite stimulant as well. I'd offer her anything and everything you think might help get her eating again; if she won't eat pellets but will eat greens, etc., that's fine for a while, you just want stuff going in and coming out, to keep GI stasis at bay.

It sounds like you're having a fair bit of trouble with your Blues, which is not entirely surprising given their rare status. If it was my project, I might think about crossing some other breed into my line to give it a boost in overall health and vigor; not that you can't also raise purebred litters alongside, but throwing a bit of good outside genetics into the mix could be very helpful in the long run. A doe suffering this much from raising a litter might not be the best sole foundation for your line of Americans. If you pick a similar breed (Beveren would be my first choice, if you can find one; a small Flemish Giant would be my second; with an emphasis on health and successful breeding history) it might not be too difficult to select back to proper type, size and color, with the added advantage of consistent good health and no loss of condition while raising a litter. It would take three generations after the outcross to get back to what would be considered purebred Americans, but three generations would come along fairly quickly if you didn't have to wean early and give emergency care to your does before being able to breed them again, and IMHO it would be a contribution to the improvement of the breed. Just something to consider.

 

[TKT]

AWESOME I info, thank you so much! How much oats and BOSS can I feed daily? Maybe I am not feeding enough? It's a couple of heaping tablespoons of each 2x a day. I am also wondering if they don't like the Modesto I'm transitioning to.

I gave a dab of Safeguard to the two crosses that came in with ear mites last September, even though I don't see any active right now, because they did have a relapse and I treated more liberally the second time with coconut oil.

The AB kits are actually bigger than my New Zealands and are a half day younger and weren't fed the first two days, or only got colostrum. I'll see what they look like in a other few weeks. They are lighter than the slate blue they should be. My new buck seems better quality but he's got weird ears. My doe came from a colony. I'll give her Safeguard tomorrow, and add in Critical Care and Benebac. I would dearly love to cross in a Beveren, also rare, sigh.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I am also wondering if they don't like the Modesto I'm transitioning to.

Ah-ha! This might be the problem, in which case I would have fewer concerns about using the doe as foundation stock. If your doe started failing sometime around the feed switch, that could easily be the issue. Some rabbits seem able to move among different feeds seamlessly, while others can really struggle, but in general, a rabbit's gut biome needs time to catch up and re-balance in response to feed changes. This, of course, can be related to genetics (like all tendencies) but is not high on my list as an important selection criteria since it does not seem to be related to overall gut resiliency (for example, tendency to weaning enteritis), at least in my barn.

How much oats and BOSS can I feed daily? Maybe I am not feeding enough? It's a couple of heaping tablespoons of each 2x a day.

At this point, I'd give her as much as she wants, of anything she will eat. She's apparently off-kilter in her gut, and allowing the rabbit to make its own choices, to balance its gut itself, has worked for me in the past. That's why I'd offer her lots of different options. If she's wanting more of the oats and BOSS and less of the pellets, she may be allowing her gut to slowly acclimate to the new pellets. Oats and BOSS can make rabbits fat (not a concern right now with this rabbit!), but even though they love the treats, my rabbits do have a limit to how much they will eat and if it's exceeded, there will be grain and seeds left in the treat dish. Your goal may be to get her on the pellets as her main ration, and if they're good pellets, eventually she shouldn't need a lot of supplementation, but it might take a while to get there.

I gave a dab of Safeguard to the two crosses that came in with ear mites last September, even though I don't see any active right now, because they did have a relapse and I treated more liberally the second time with coconut oil.

I don't generally use the Safeguard for mites; it may very well work, but I've relied on oil (olive, sweet or even mineral oil) for ear mites, and ivermectin for particularly persistent fur mites. If you're having recurrences, it would be worth trying to figure out where they're coming from: solid wood in the hutches, straw, hay, other animals?

Susceptibility to suffer from parasitic infestations can also be a genetic predisposition, whether it's directly related to the body's response to the parasite, or an overall tendency to be less robustly healthy. I've found that rabbits that are stressed are far more likely to suffer problematic mite infestations (and all other ailments, actually). If I have a rabbit that gets repeated infestations in my barn - those that are not a result of living at the fair for weeks - I tend to cull, since it indicates a tendency not only to infestation but also to higher stress levels. Less stressed = more health; easily-stressed or high-strung = more health problems.

The AB kits are actually bigger than my New Zealands and are a half day younger and weren't fed the first two days, or only got colostrum. I'll see what they look like in a other few weeks.

Kits not being fed for the first few days could be another red flag regarding the doe, but I'm guessing it was her first litter and maybe she'll get a pass for that. Although, most of my Satins are good right out of the gate, so that's something else to select for when you actually have options from which to select!

They are lighter than the slate blue they should be. My new buck seems better quality but he's got weird ears. My doe came from a colony.
I would dearly love to cross in a Beveren, also rare, sigh.

All of these observations change my first suggestion for an outcross to Flemish. Beverens have a very pale, almost lilac blue color, so that would not help your line, while Flemish blue is a similar shade to American blue. Beverens have a distinct breed-characteristic v-shaped ear carriage, while Americans and Flemish both call for upright ear carriage. And Flemish are a lot more common, in most areas anyway.

Finding a smallish Flemish probably won't be all that difficult, and they will be the ones that breeders want to offload, if they're not culled right away. I'd try to find a Flemish breeder with blues and let them know what you're trying to do. If you're moving away from an extreme (Flemish size and bone, in this case), that's a lot easier to do that than recovering an extreme quality, so it would probably not be super challenging to select for crossbred offsping with bone and size appropriate to Americans rather than Flemish.

By the same token, NZ could offer a decent cross, especially since you already have them. The NZ standard also calls for a deep, rich color and upright ear carriage. Their body type is of course different, but in my experience a long shoulder is a lot easier to get than to eliminate (again, that extreme compact/commercial body is only maintained by heavy selection)! And if your NZs have good depth, that might really benefit your Americans, which although they have a longer, lower shoulder, are still supposed to have good meat-producing depth in the hindquarters.

 

[TKT]

Again this is wonderful information, thank you so much!

I've been trying to get them off the basic Purina rabbit pellets. It may be that the lack of corn and soy is causing loss of weight, but the Modesto has more oats, which should make up for that..? I've kept them at a 1 to 2 ratio and took two months to get there very gradually. I may work it back to 50/50, or even less of the Modesto, which is exorbitantly expensive. One of my current New Zealand mamas is also thinner. I pet them multiple times a day and feel their backs and ribs and it just seems like over the last couple days she has lost a little weight too. She also desperately wants oats and BOSS. She does eat her pellets but slowly. She is free fed of course, being a mama with 10 day old kits.

The two rabbits that had ear mites were from the same breeder (out of four purchased). I think we did not treat successively often enough the first time, which let them come back. I see no sign of mites now.

I am trying very hard to continue my education, and to do right by these rabbits!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Again this is wonderful information, thank you so much!

I've been trying to get them off the basic Purina rabbit pellets. It may be that the lack of corn and soy is causing loss of weight, but the Modesto has more oats, which should make up for that..? I've kept them at a 1 to 2 ratio and took two months to get there very gradually. I may work it back to 50/50, or even less of the Modesto, which is exorbitantly expensive. One of my current New Zealand mamas is also thinner. I pet them multiple times a day and feel their backs and ribs and it just seems like over the last couple days she has lost a little weight too. She also desperately wants oats and BOSS. She does eat her pellets but slowly. She is free fed of course, being a mama with 10 day old kits.

The two rabbits that had ear mites were from the same breeder (out of four purchased). I think we did not treat successively often enough the first time, which let them come back. I see no sign of mites now.

I am trying very hard to continue my education, and to do right by these rabbits!

Hmm, I would think that by two months they would have adjusted to the new feed, especially if they're still getting the old feed as well. However...

I shifted my rabbits to no-corn-no-soy feed a few years ago and they are doing well. The problems with changing feed are often not entirely about the nutrition itself (corn and soy vs oats) but rather the change in food items causing/requiring a change in the microorganisms living in the rabbit's gut, microorganisms which assist in fermenting and digesting the food as well as playing a large role in the immune system.

The gut hosts a wide variety of microorganisms, each of which prefers and thrives on particular foods. To use a familiar human example, yeasts like Candida albicans are normally found in the human gut, but they thrive on sugars, so a diet high in simple carbs can result in a candida overgrowth. On the other hand, roughage like leafy greens feeds more helpful microorganisms (in both humans and rabbits), which keep the less helpful microbes at bay. In any case, the foods that the rabbit usually eats have produced a characteristic community of microorganisms in its gut. When feed is changed significantly, the micro-community reorganizes, and during the process things can get petty far out of balance, which means a bellyache in a rabbit. Worst case scenario, less helpful microbes get an edge, the rabbit stops wanting to eat, then bad guys really take over, making the rabbit really sick. So, that's why I suggested Benebac or another probiotic, as a means to help reestablish a proper balance of microorganisms in the rabbit's gut.

All of this might be helpful in understanding what might be going on, but in the end, IMHO you just really need to keep the rabbits eating. As I said, in my experience, as long as they are eating anything at all, letting them choose what and how much they're eating has worked to bring them back to a good balance. If the doe desperately wants oats and BOSS, I'd let her have them.

The caveat is that if there is something else going on - worms or another parasitic infestation, for instance - that needs to be addressed as well. When I have a rabbit that just isn't "right," one I just can't get into prime shape or to a good weight, but doesn't seem to have any specific problem, I turn to fenbendazole. While some drugs (especially antibiotics) will further mess up the gut biome, I have never had a rabbit seem to suffer any ill effects from fenbendazole, and many of them turn around apparently miraculously.

Frequently watching and handling your rabbits is a great way to learn quickly and to catch problems before they become grave. Taking weekly weights is another thing I strongly encourage.

 

[TKT]

Thank you again so much! I am really attached to these does, and I understand what you're saying about the gut biome. We've watched a lot of documentaries about how it affects people, even down to psychological aspects. The gut behaves like a second brain in a lot of ways. The question becomes whether we are just a vehicle for bacteria to get around the environment and procreate, lol.

Edit: to add that the drop in weight definitely seems to be correlating to recently adjusting the ratio of Modesto upward, now that you've made me think about the gut factor.

Alao my current two youngest litters from NZ does (a red bred to a black (gold tipped? I don't know my colors well yet) 1/4 Flemish 3/4 NZ) buck, and a black bred to the same cross but a steel buck, have a number of what look like blacks and possibly a couple of blues between them, as well as two reds and what look like two chestnuts with the black doe. I can see I'm going to be doing a lot of head scratching looking up colors in the future when they get older.

And I would bet that the American Blue buck that I just got for free (although it was a 5-hour trip each way), likely has Beveren by his ear set! He's super sweet but I'm tempted to change his name to Goofball. He also has areas of rusty color but he was kept outside and exposed to the sun. I figure I just need to get good at raising rabbits before I worry too much about SOP, even though I will aim for it! It's not only that they're rare, but it's so difficult to even get any kind of an answer back from anybody who has them. I was extremely delighted to get this boy, even with his ridiculous ears!

 

[TKT]

Can I ask for opinions on what winter weather does to rabbits' weights? Everybunny gets at least a cup of pellet, the bigger rabbits get a little more. They have clean leafy green timothy at all times. I also give them alfalfa timothy horse cubes to gnaw. The lactating does and kits get unlimited pellet and hay, and the does get oats and BOSS, but my smallest black New Zealand also is thinner. Her kits are about 12 days old. My red NZ is fine. Both does have 8 kits, all look well fed. About 2/3 seem thin, though my Blue doe is the thinnest, except for my doe with the weak leg from prior injury. All my bucks but my new one are fine, new Blue is also thinner. He doesn't seem to like the pellet he was sent with, and does not seem used to eating hay.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Can I ask for opinions on what winter weather does to rabbits' weights? Everybunny gets at least a cup of pellet, the bigger rabbits get a little more. They have clean leafy green timothy at all times. I also give them alfalfa timothy horse cubes to gnaw. The lactating does and kits get unlimited pellet and hay, and the does get oats and BOSS, but my smallest black New Zealand also is thinner. Her kits are about 12 days old. My red NZ is fine. Both does have 8 kits, all look well fed. About 2/3 seem thin, though my Blue doe is the thinnest, except for my doe with the weak leg from prior injury. All my bucks but my new one are fine, new Blue is also thinner. He doesn't seem to like the pellet he was sent with, and does not seem used to eating hay.

A lot of it has to do with the rabbits. All of our rabbits get pellets only with no supplements unless they're nursing a very large litter. None of them get a different ration during the winter, not even the little Polish, and none of them lose weight unless something is wrong. (Instead of upping rations, I give the little ones a straw-stuffed box if it gets below zero degrees F.) In fact, several of my Satin does are overweight, to the point where I couldn't show them last month. I wasn't paying close enough attention and my younger teen wasn't measuring their feed very accurately. I guess having rabbits that can get fat when it's 30 below is not the worst problem to have.

If I had rabbits that got thin in lower temperatures, I'd give them BOSS for a little while to prevent them suffering, but going forward, mostly I'd try to breed easy keepers. If they were getting thin when it's not cold, I'd look for some other problem to explain the weight loss.

 

[TKT]

We are in the '30s at night with some wind from which they are protected. I don't know if the noise from the wind bothers them, there are things that bang around the property. They usually seem pretty chill when I check on them which is about four times a day. They are all from a warmer climate (not the mountains) except my Blues which are local.

Maybe I should have Satins from Alaska!

I intend to keep the biggest and best out of my litters. I had to start with what I could find but I just want to make the best of what I have and take the best care of them I can.

The skinny blue doe got Critical Care with Benebac syringed today, just in case it will help, but she is eating her hay now and ate oats from my hand several times. She is used to me hand feeding her so that helps keep her interested. She keeps wanting to dump her pellet bowl though. I gave her an extra one that just has oats and BOSS in it. She must be eating because there is good poop in her tray every day.