Just how 'genetic' is temperament?

[Desert Rose Rabbits]

So, was messing with the rabbits today while cleaning cages and have come to the conclusion that the two does I am thinking of holding back for new stock are just, well... I'd like to call them names that probably wouldn't be appropriate for this board. The only reason I'm holding them back is that they're not sneezing/weepy, and they have nice wide and densely furred feet. Otherwise, they really have no redeeming qualities. They've been regularly handled from day 1, and are now 4mo old (as of christmas day!). In the last couple of weeks, they've become more standoffish, and rude, and a SERIOUS pain to deal with outside of their hutch. Admittedly, these two does are the most dominant out of all the other buns to the point that I'd call them bullies who are willing to draw blood.

How true does temperament breed? I know that these are just meat bunnies, but I still want 'nice' rabbits, or at least buns that are easy to handle. I can honestly say, that I just don't LIKE these girls. If they were people I'd have nothing to do with them!

 

[sammysue63]

We breed NZW and have found that attack bunnies aren't worth the effort unless we really, really need them. We have had a few that we tried to keep but they ultimately ended up in freezer camp.

 

[3mina]

How badly do you need them? Temperament can be bred for but it'll take a while, a few generations anyway and you can work on any other traits at the same time.

 

[desertcat]

In their defense, at 4 months they ARE teenagers! I have one of those myself and am seriously looking forward to Feb when we breed for the next round of babies :roll:

If motherhood doesn't settle them down, we all know what does.

 

[akane]

That's why I don't recommend does as unaltered pets except from certain lines I've bred for the past several years. Unless you know both the dam and sires line have good tempered does and that combo throws good tempered does you never know what will happen when they hit that 4month mark. Then throw in the personality changes you can get while breeding and they are so unpredictable. It doesn't seem to matter how much you handle them or what you do if they are going to be hormonal crazy does they turn in to it. Minor cases (not the psycho aggressive ones) tend to improve as they mature and have a couple litters so the hormones lessen.

 

[grumpy]

I call 'em Alley-Gators. Mean old hussies' that'll take
a chunk out of ya!!

I raise commercial NZW's and lord knows I've waded through
some doozy's. They're pretty much all eliminated now. But
it took me a few years to breed away from those traits.
I don't have any of those bloodlines left anymore.

And YES those traits can be passed on to offspring.
Regardless of how 'great' a doe is, if she's mean, she's snake food.
There's too many gentle tempered does that raise good litters.
Those are the ones you hold back sons and daughters from.

grumpy.

 

[Ramjet]

I'm beginning to think that temperament isn't really a genetic issue but an individual one .... Just like people. How many of you have a sibling that's the total opposite of you ... be that good or bad. I'm noticing rabbits to be much the same , even from the same litter and being handled on a daily basis , some just don't adjust to human contact and over time begin to react .... much like our not so nice siblings would.

 

[PSFAngoras]

The above may be true perhaps with bucks, but I have noticed that does do pass on their temperamnent to their kits. If your looking for nice rabbits, I wouldn't try those does. It may work if you foster their kits over to a nicer doe, but does like that are immediate freezer camp bait in my rabbitry

 

[grumpy]

Gotta disagree Ramjet.
I had a one-eared old doe that was hell-on-wheels.
Her daughters and granddaughters were the same way.

Her son, however, was as gentle as a lamb and never showed
any bad habits what so ever.

grumpy.

 

[Dood]

:yeahthat:

Comparing human temperament to domestic animals that have been selectively bred for hundreds to millions of generations is like comparing apples and jabuticaba

Temperament has been proven to be heritable but does it really matter in an small easy to overpower animal that is usually kept individually in cages? No, so it hasn't been selected for as extensively in rabbits compared to other species.

Personally i consider temperament as a very important trait in all of my livestock and pets and anyone who acts in a way I disapprove of is eliminated from the farm or at least the gene pool.

 

[dayna]

:yeahthat:

Comparing human temperament to domestic animals that have been selectively bred for hundreds to millions of generations is like comparing apples and jabuticaba

Temperament has been proven to be heritable but does it really matter in an small easy to overpower animal that is usually kept individually in cages? No, so it hasn't been selected for as extensively in rabbits compared to other species.

Personally i consider temperament as a very important trait in all of my livestock and pets and anyone who acts in a way I disapprove of is eliminated from the farm or at least the gene pool.

My neighbor has one of those grape trees, YUMMY! My favorite!

I think personality is passed on. I don't now why it happens more in animals (think dog lines) than in people. But it does seem to be the case.

I won't keep around a cranky doe or buck. My rabbits have learned that the hard way.

 

[Ramjet]

Gotta disagree Ramjet.
I had a one-eared old doe that was hell-on-wheels.
Her daughters and granddaughters were the same way.

Her son, however, was as gentle as a lamb and never showed
any bad habits what so ever.

grumpy.

:yeahthat:

Comparing human temperament to domestic animals that have been selectively bred for hundreds to millions of generations is like comparing apples and jabuticaba

Temperament has been proven to be heritable but does it really matter in an small easy to overpower animal that is usually kept individually in cages? No, so it hasn't been selected for as extensively in rabbits compared to other species.

Personally i consider temperament as a very important trait in all of my livestock and pets and anyone who acts in a way I disapprove of is eliminated from the farm or at least the gene pool.

You guy's obviously have much greater experience than I do .... and Ive had a couple nasty does Ive sent to the freezer camp in my short time keeping rabbits but I have had siblings of those examples that had totally different personalities ... They really seem individual to me.

I refuse to keep a nasty tempered animal as well. Just no sense in it when I have so many options.

All of my current rabbits (13 total) are very friendly , crawl out of the cage for attention friendly , mainly because my two youngest kids handle them on a daily basis.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Ramjet,

you are right that rabbits vary in litters temperament wise.

Early handling has a lot to do with their behavior (as I learned with Evil Blue), but so does the temperament of the mother. If she freaks out every time you reach into the cage, her kits will learn that humans are not to be trusted.

But it is also true that a nasty temperament can be passed on, even if kits are fostered to a placid doe.

I might keep a stand-offish rabbit, but would never keep a truly aggressive one. I have yet to be bitten by one of my rabbits, and if one ever goes there, it will earn a one way ticket to the crockpot. There are just too many nice rabbits to take a chance of passing that trait on.

 

[Ramjet]

Ramjet,

you are right that rabbits vary in litters temperament wise.

Early handling has a lot to do with their behavior (as I learned with Evil Blue), but so does the temperament of the mother. If she freaks out every time you reach into the cage, her kits will learn that humans are not to be trusted.

But it is also true that a nasty temperament can be passed on, even if kits are fostered to a placid doe.

I might keep a stand-offish rabbit, but would never keep a truly aggressive one. I have yet to be bitten by one of my rabbits, and if one ever goes there, it will earn a one way ticket to the crockpot. There are just too many nice rabbits to take a chance of passing that trait on.

I recently put one down that had bitten me & my son ... Her sister is polar opposite , nice as can be. I almost wish I hadn't put that psycho rabbit down yet and allowed her to have a litter or two & possibly swapped one of her litters for her sisters just to experiment with the behavior issue.
There was another similarly titled thread recently & it really had me considering the experiment .... until my son got bitten. I cant have nasty biters with 8 & 9 year old kids who constantly have a rabbit in hand.
Technically I still have the genetics as I have her sister , just don't have the ability to swap litters between a nice & nasty doe.
Those two does came from a guy who never handled his rabbits other than at breeding and butchering ...



I don't know how much others actually handle their rabbits .... but I'm sure human interaction is at least somewhat a learned trait.
Rabbits that I have raised myself from birth and handled on a daily basis tend to be much friendlier than those I've gotten from others & none of them are at all standoffish. Even the one I had that was hard to handle (from Evil Blue) seems to like human attention , she just didn't like being picked up but after a couple weeks of daily interaction , taking her out , putting her back several times a day she's easy for me to handle now. (That placing them in butt first trick really helped).


I wonder if others have the same experiences ....


(I don't claim to know it all , just passing on my personal observations & learning as I go & definitely don't have the experience of Dood or Grumpy)

 

[Desert Rose Rabbits]

I think I'll end up sending 'em to freezer camp. I was hoping to have one or two to hold onto, but I really just DON'T like them. Might hold onto the more laid back of the two and see if she mellows out at all. She's buddied up with her sister right now w/out any infighting, and I wonder if that may be contributing to the attitude. *shrug* Who knows.

I'll have to go back and sex the two other litters I have right now and see what' I've got. Last time I went through, between the two litters (18 buns) all were bucks but 2 or 3 and I have those coming out of my ears.

 

[Schipperkesue]

Just how 'genetic' is temperament?

In my experience it is not just an either/or trait. In other words, not 100% genetic or 100% environmental. That is part of what makes it so confusing. Different temperaments in siblings could be genetic...different kits getting different genes, or environmental, differences in handling, mom's behaviour, etc.

I also carefully cull for temperament in all the species I raise. Survival of the kindest. However, if it is an individual that I want to keep for other traits and its temperament is poor, I will breed it, but watch those babies for similar temperament.

 

[skysthelimit]

I agree it is a combo. But if I can eliminate a factor I give it my best.
I think I've had enough litters now, to say I'll cull for temperament. I handle all my kits excessive from birth, since I pull nest boxes. The does I started with I did not raise. Hellions. I kept a doe from one of those does, hand raised her, and she is not easy to handle. I kept a doe out of that one. Temperament is like the granddam and dam. The second litter is super sweet though, but the sire is a total sweet heart, from a breeder that culls cranky rabbits that won't self pose
I've tried fostering as well, I put a hostile does kits in with the sweet holland. Still got standoffish hostile kits. All the holland kits would run up tome and kiss me in the cage, and they MR kit would hide in the back and fight when I reached for her.

The funniest one, was the standoffish doe, who bit me once. Her kits were very loving and not shy at all. I think hers was a learned behavior.

I am waiting to see what becomes of the Cal Rex kit, from the Cal Rex who took a chunk out of my hand. This is an inbred litter. If those nasty genes are in the mix, I'm gonna find out. His dam is not sweet, but she's not hostile either, and the sire was much friendly than his sister and his sire.

 

[dangerbunny]

I absolutely think genetics do play a role, kits tend towards different traits and how they are handled brings out the personality. I personally won't keep a mean animal and I find temperament to be of equal importance to type and hardiness, I like easy to handle bunnies! One of reasons I chose the breeds I did (silver fox and holland lop) is both breeds have a reputation for being friendly and mellow.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I have had lots of babies over the years... If the mom is mean ,, her kit can be or not be .. and it isn't on how much you handle that rabbit .. if it is in them .. it usually comes out in puberty reach... I had some will come out at 8 weeks.. I cull right away.. I had bought three sisters from one litter. and I am down to one.... the other two would bite .. one was really bad and bite through my glove ... she didn't last long and the other one would also but not as bad... she also went and now I have a nice litter with the third one and she is my best , sweetest doe in the bunch.. She is my favourite... I also purchase a male and female from a breeder as babies... they are now over a year old.. the buck is the best going and so mellow and dosnt mind to be groomed .. now the other one is a different story.. I have to show her who the boss is and you don't bite the hand that feeds you... but she has very nice babies ... so I will see how that goes. I have had shy ones and I have had ones that love to be out of the cage and be brushed and pampered over...and I have one doe that will fly off my table any chance she gets.. So temperament is really genetics,,, but it can come from the grandparents or even further down the line.. Doesn't mean it will come from the parents.. One litter of the same breeding will be different than the second litter from the same parents..

 

[Zass]

I believe that there are both learned elements and genetic ones when it comes to temper.

Since I treat all my rabbits the same (basically, like pets), if one bites me and another snuggles...well, the biter is stew and the cuddler gets to stay. That's a genetic factor.

I raise meat, so I don't sacrifice breeding ability for temper, but...since I'm getting 9-12 kits per litter on average from does that are easy to handle, nice to the buck and generally each other too, lift well, can nurse that many, make great foster moms, and have good coats and body, I have absolutely no need to put up with a mean rabbit.
(if only the purebreds would perform like the mutts!)

A shy rabbit I will bring inside and nurture and desensitize until we become good friends. I have few enough rabbits that I have time for that. My latest shy doe has become a WONDER to handle. She still hates being carried around (will pout afterwards), but she submits nicely, isn't terrified and won't struggle.

About to go cull a rabbit for a friend who was a biter as a young doe, stopped after a few litters, and then recently started back up with no change to her living conditions. Her mother was culled for meanness too. Just seems to run in some lines.