Is this a dwarf gene problem ( peanut)?

Rabbit Talk  Forum

Help Support Rabbit Talk Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Robochelle

Well-known member
Rabbit Talk Supporter
Joined
May 13, 2022
Messages
158
Reaction score
199
I've been breeding this winter, hoping to have several mature does in time for spring. I have a lot of new does with their first litter, making new mother mistakes like birthing outside of the nest.

This is the second litter of 7 that were abnormally small The father is the same for both litters. The mothers are both on the small side, but I assumed it was because they are still young (under a year). Now I'm beginning to wonder if I have dwarf genes, and bad luck with the odds... Is this what a peanut looks like?
(Warning, photo of stillborn)PXL_20240110_041357283.RAW-01.COVER.jpg
Edit: for context, my hand fits in children's gloves. The kits are maybe 2 inches long.
 
Kinda looks like it to me. Peanut most of the time have non-correctly formed parts like back legs, ears, and head
 
I've been breeding this winter, hoping to have several mature does in time for spring. I have a lot of new does with their first litter, making new mother mistakes like birthing outside of the nest.

This is the second litter of 7 that were abnormally small The father is the same for both litters. The mothers are both on the small side, but I assumed it was because they are still young (under a year). Now I'm beginning to wonder if I have dwarf genes, and bad luck with the odds... Is this what a peanut looks like?
(Warning, photo of stillborn)
Edit: for context, my hand fits in children's gloves. The kits are maybe 2 inches long.
To make peanuts, both parents have to carry the dwarf gene. If a rabbit is a dwarf (which is a rabbit with one copy of the gene <dw>), it's usually pretty easy to tell - they're quite small, and have relatively shorter ears, legs and heads than normal. If your parent rabbits were dwarfs, you'd probably know it, but if you post photos we might be able to comment on the possibility.

Two inches is pretty small, but the photo is so blurry I can't really decide whether they're peanuts or malnourished normal kits. Peanuts can vary but their heads are usually huge and rounded, with kind of a dome on the forehead, and their eyes bulge (even though they're not open yet). Their ears are minuscule, as in as small as the end of a yellow pencil's eraser. Their legs are really short and their hindquarters and back legs are very much reduced compared to a normal kit. It seems that your kits might display some of those features but again, I can't really tell from the photo. It does defy the odds that you'd have two entire litters of peanuts, but then again, genes don't read the statistics manuals. :LOL:

If they're not peanuts, repeated small kit size and stillbirth can be related to nutrition or other fitness status of the doe, or a generic incompatibility between buck and doe. It could also be that this is an unnatural time of year to be having babies, and the fact that the does are young and small themselves.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Two inches is pretty small, but the photo is so blurry I can't really decide whether they're peanuts or malnourished normal kits. Peanuts can vary but their heads are usually huge and rounded, with kind of a dome on the forehead, and their eyes bulge (even though they're not open yet). Their ears are minuscule, as in as small as the end of a yellow pencil's eraser. Their legs are really short and their hindquarters and back legs are very much reduced compared to a normal kit. It seems that your kits might display some of those features but again, I can't really tell from the photo. It does defy the odds that you'd have two entire litters of peanuts, but then again, genes don't read the statistics manuals. :LOL:

If they're not peanuts, repeated small kit size and stillbirth can be related to nutrition or other fitness status of the doe, or a generic incompatibility between buck and doe. It could also be that this is an unnatural time of year to be having babies, and the fact that the does are young and small themselves.
If you click on the photo, it unblurs.

Their ears are small, but that domed head feature is most definitely not there. There's something not quite right about the legs, too. It has got to be something other than dwarf, then.

Nutrition might be the problem? They were both the smallest of the colony, maybe they weren't getting enough pellets. This seems odd, though, because their colony have an unusual behavior of taking turns eating pellets- their mom taught them, it happened in her next litter, too.

Fitness doesn't really fit, because they are in a colony-like cage of 4 buns (3' x 6' x 2'), and they have weeks where they free-roam the building (12' x 12'). They should be more fit than others who have birthed in a cage setting only.

It might be compatibility with the buck, that would be a shame. He is Satin angora, not New Zealand. I have skinned those of his line after they died, and I was impressed by the softness of the meat on the legs, and the meat-to-bone ratio. I was hoping to breed that into the meat line, then breed out the pet-traits in future generations. As of yesterday he has sired a living litter with another angora. It very well could be compatibility between the different breeds.
 
If you click on the photo, it unblurs.

Their ears are small, but that domed head feature is most definitely not there. There's something not quite right about the legs, too. It has got to be something other than dwarf, then.

Nutrition might be the problem? They were both the smallest of the colony, maybe they weren't getting enough pellets. This seems odd, though, because their colony have an unusual behavior of taking turns eating pellets- their mom taught them, it happened in her next litter, too.

Fitness doesn't really fit, because they are in a colony-like cage of 4 buns (3' x 6' x 2'), and they have weeks where they free-roam the building (12' x 12'). They should be more fit than others who have birthed in a cage setting only.

It might be compatibility with the buck, that would be a shame. He is Satin angora, not New Zealand. I have skinned those of his line after they died, and I was impressed by the softness of the meat on the legs, and the meat-to-bone ratio. I was hoping to breed that into the meat line, then breed out the pet-traits in future generations. As of yesterday he has sired a living litter with another angora. It very well could be compatibility between the different breeds.
Thanks for the tip re: clicking on the photo - I had no idea. (Technologically challenged doesn't begin to describe me...:rolleyes:) I agree, their legs look off, and they look quite malnourished, but no, I don't think they're peanuts.

But I doubt it would be genetic incompatibility between breeds, All rabbits share the same set of genes; the forms of each gene ("allele") just vary from one individual or breed to the next. It was more the possibility of both parents carrying some sort of lethal recessive (a gene, like the dwarf gene, that is fatal when in the homozygous state) that I was thinking of, but that would be less likely with unrelated rabbits. It could still happen, but the odds would be astronomical.

Now that I hear that the rabbits live in a colony, and both dams were the smallest, my suspicions shift to a dominance issue. Although four rabbits isn't that many, in any group, rabbits will work out a dominance hierarchy. Part of that system includes what's known as "resource guarding." Dominant individuals demonstrate their position, among other ways, by keeping subordinates away from food, water, and sometimes even shelter. It's usually not enough to kill the underling, but it can really make a difference in the fitness of the animal at the bottom of the pecking order. (By fitness I'm referring not to physical strength, per se, but to an animal's ability to thrive and reproduce.) I've watched it play out in numerous herd-oriented species, everything from from chickens to yaks. In rabbits, unless the dominant rabbit is over-the-top aggressive, it is usually quite subtle, but it definitely happens. You sometimes see evidence of this in litters where there are one or two smaller bunnies, that suddenly thrive and catch up to all the others when they get their own cages.

I can't see what is happening for myself in what you describe as taking turns, but I imagine it could be a result of resource-guarding. For example, yaks mostly look like a peaceful group of shaggy cows when they're out grazing. But they all know their place, and the peace depends on them keeping in line. In our herd, the herd bull Maximus, and his favorite lady, Dawn, get to eat first at a new round bale. Sometimes the second-position steer (Azariah) gets to eat too - at the least-desired spot - but other times he has to wait until Maximus and Dawn are done. The lowest guy on the totem pole, a steer named Hot Shot, doesn't even bother to cross the yard to the hay shed until the top dogs are done. He just stands watching until they leave, and takes a different trail through the snow than the one they're returning on, to get to the hay. My kids used to try to get him to eat at the same time as Maximus, but he always got punished so roundly that they gave up. The same thing happens when we're putting halters on to take them out (they love to go on walks). Hot Shot hangs way back until the others are out, or he gets horned to remind him of his place. Sometimes he gets to be in the lean-to shelter with the others, but other times he has to stand outside the shelter when the others are in there. The thing is, you almost never see the punishment because the underlings know their place and hang back...i.e., they wait their turn.

Since your does seem otherwise healthy, and you note that the taking turns behavior is unusual, it seems to me that this could be a possibility. Maybe they're being prevented from getting enough to eat to gestate and feed a litter, or they're being kept from the nest and so were unable to feed the kits. I have not raised rabbits in colonies, and I know a lot of folks have good luck with it, but I do know rabbits establish dominance hierarchies. I wonder if this kind of things happens more often than people know, since colonies by their nature give the rabbits a lot more privacy, so to speak.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
don't look like peanuts, looks like a small, unfed kit. Given the resource guarding, my suggestion would be to separate the two smaller does into their own colony setting and let them raise their kits there. Less competition. a 3 x 6 x 2 area is small for four rabbits even if they sometimes have access to a 12 x 12 area.
 
My guess is that's too many for that space. My time with rabbits in a colony was 1 doe and her 3 daughters who had never been separated. In a 55sq ft colony. I had a decent experience with it but when I butchered the does two of the daughter does had significant damage to the hide. You could see how they had been fighting and these two were lower in the hierarchy. In hindsight I would have been better off to start with the three daughters. And really they'd probably have been happier with just two does in that space.

The general rule for colony seems to be 20sq ft per doe if leaving kits in colony. 10sq ft per doe if you're pulling kits at weaning, either to cages or another colony. And 20sq ft for the buck.

3x6 is only 18sq ft. I think you'd get better results to have one doe and her litter(s) in that space. Maybe with the buck but that's really going to depend on their personalities.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top