Hypothetical breeding-- Build a herd

[PhoenixFarm]

Here is a thinking problem for those that want to know how to 'create' something to fit their chosen breed's standard using a mixed bag of genetics..

You want to develop a line of pedigreed Californian for show and registration purposes. You have ONLY three rabbits to use as your foundation, and you may NOT import any other genetics.

The rabbits you have are--

A CAL x New Zealand Doe-colored ears and nose smudge 11 pounds
A Florida White buck 5 pounds
A small, pedigreed, but unregisterable, Cal doe 7 pounds

Now, Lay out a breeding plan and tell us the 'why' behind it.

 

[Jack]

OOH, my head hurts, good question, it's doable, but...
I think off the top of my head, you want outside at about 5gen

 

[PulpFaction]

Linebreed on the pure Cal doe, selecting for size from the other doe. Use the original buck only once, assuming his sons would be be closer to the doe. I think the standard line breeding chart would do it, or do you want more detail?

 

[moonkitten]

I agree with Rachel. It would mean a lot of breedings and time to go step by step to where you wanted to get, but quite possible with enough patience.

Excellent question, btw!

 

[PhoenixFarm]

I think ya have it-- one of the issues with having a super small foundation is diversifying (enlarging) the genetic pool. Since both does are marked, cover each with the buck at least twice, producing the F1 generations. From F1, choose the best male from each litter, and breed to the doe that is not his momma. The resulting kits(F2) now have the potential for carrying genetics from all three of the foundation rabbits.Also, within the F1 generation, breed the best half brothers to their half sisters.That resulting F2 generation should produce animals close to registerable standards. Since no outside genetics are permitted,all culling should be based on body structure, then color, then size. Only breed back to the FW buck if there is a structure issue, because breeding back to him or either doe erases part of that three generations of pedigree that you need to establish. It would also result in narrowing the available genetic structure. Breeding back to the does is necessary in the first generation to increase the gene pool and provide a larger number of female offspring to work with.

Yes, one is line breeding, but at the same time, helping to maintain genetic diversity which means genetic health is also ensured.

 

[eco2pia]

Wow. I like it. Now if only I had the cage space for all that! I have a similar problem to solve. Assuming ruthless culling, how few holes do you think you could get by with? :mrgreen:

I have a goal, registerable offspring, and I have two partial pedigrees on two nice animals. The question is, would I be wiser to buy a second doe or breed one? Moot point in real life, I have no $$ for a quality second doe, nor have I found what I want locally (though Paula might be able to help me out) and the freezer is the real priority....But hypothetically?

And how does starting with registered stock (as in the OP) help your future registration? Is being able to trace to a registered individual within a certian number of generations required?

 

[PhoenixFarm]

Wow. I like it. Now if only I had the cage space for all that! I have a similar problem to solve. Assuming ruthless culling, how few holes do you think you could get by with? :mrgreen:

I have a goal, registerable offspring, and I have two partial pedigrees on two nice animals. The question is, would I be wiser to buy a second doe or breed one? Moot point in real life, I have no $$ for a quality second doe, nor have I found what I want locally (though Paula might be able to help me out) and the freezer is the real priority....But hypothetically?

And how does starting with registered stock (as in the OP) help your future registration? Is being able to trace to a registered individual within a certian number of generations required?

You missed it-- the pedigrred doe is UNregisterd-- due to her small size.

In order to register a rabbit, that rabbit must be a senior, have no disqualifications, and be evaluated by a registrar as being within the standard. The animal must have a full, 3 generation pedigree. every animal has a pedigree, just whether or not the ancest0rs are actualy 'known' is the issue. And of course, pedigrees do not ensure 'purebred'status, Once you can start producing registerrable stock, the future generations ,even though they may produce some unregisterable individuals, should pretty much stay within the standards of the breed. A pedigree does not gaurantee quality-- but since the ARBA requires animals to actually be seen by one of their trained evaluators in order to be registered, you can be assured that a registered rabbit has met minimum standards for the breed.

It is nice that the ARBA permits us to develope our breeds if we cannot just flat out buy enough animals to use as foundations. I am starting over with a half breed AmChin. The only genetics I have from my wiped out herd. I am hopefully going to be getting a young buck (related several generations back) for her in the spring.

 

[eco2pia]

OH! You are right, I mis-read that! thanks for clearing it up.

I really feel I may not have much of a chance anyway--it would take years and years since I have only four holes (which, with a bit of creative stacking, could still only double) and I am playing around with brokens, so added genetic fiddly bits. But hey, I'm going to be breeding them anyway, might as well have a goal, however unrealistic.

 

[pfaubush]

Brandy, I should have some reds this summer...wink, wink. I also will be taking a trip up to Portland, since my daughter has to go to Doerenbecher Hospital every 4 months.

 

[eco2pia]

Hmmm, Paula, broken red does not too closely related to Winston? :mrgreen:

Enabler. :lol:

My solid doe is really a nice dark red...that would be nice to work in there. I think though, according to Akane's neat explanation of pattern modifiers, I should go with broken does, and cull for pattern and color (and type, and meaty-ness, and mothering ability....sheesh!) Yup. That is the plan.

I have some things I really like, it is just going to be the simple little matter of keeping what I like while selecting for what I want....lol.

 

[PhoenixFarm]

OH! You are right, I mis-read that! thanks for clearing it up.

I really feel I may not have much of a chance anyway--it would take years and years since I have only four holes (which, with a bit of creative stacking, could still only double) and I am playing around with brokens, so added genetic fiddly bits. But hey, I'm going to be breeding them anyway, might as well have a goal, however unrealistic.

with some ceative work, "holes' multiply!!! And no goal is unrealistic-- just a bit longer or more difficult to reach- it is the jurneythatreally counts

 

[DevonW]

Line breeding to the pedigreed Californian would be ideal if you had a larger buck. Unfortunately a small doe and a small buck line bred to the small doe you are going to struggle with getting rabbits that are too small to be Cals

I would breed the Florida White to the cross doe first, keep back a cal marked buck ONLY if he makes proper weight for a Cal. Then breed him to the pedigreed doe. Keep back the largest buck in the litter and breed him back to the Cal NZ cross. And so forth.

Although the easiest way to get Registrable Cals in a short amount of time, is the patience to save some money for a nice trio that's already pedigreed. It saves a lot of time and a whole lot of cage space.

 

[PhoenixFarm]

Although the easiest way to get Registrable Cals in a short amount of time, is the patience to save some money for a nice trio that's already pedigreed. It saves a lot of time and a whole lot of cage space.

devon, Sometimes a person has to save money for other reasons, and when the available cash on hand, per month, is a VERY small amount, that can be quite difficult. ME, for example--I get less that 850 dollars a month from SSDI(basically,'retirement') My rent is 500 a month. My Service Dog costs about 60 a month to maintain. Subtract co-pays, non-food grocery items, the phone and electric bills, transportation costs- If I start with the hypothetical mixed bag of genetics, I have good quality food to eat as I build my herd.I don't have to feel so bad about sending a better quality aniaml to freezer camp or cooking school. You will probably understand a bit better when you get more than just a 'bit' older. I did not ask for the situation I am in, and with the Terry-er attitude I have, I should be on dirt within two years, THEN I could buy that registered trio!! Meanwhile, I have found, perhaps, a buck to cover my half AmChin doe....

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

The original post said for "show and registration purposes", and I believe thats what Devon based the answer on. Eating culls to help with finances or feeling bad about sending good quality rabbits to freezer camp wasn't mentioned as being part of this hypothetical situation. I also would have responded with a similar answer. I am also putting forth that of the six "c" genes that are to be originally involved 3 of them or half are small "c" with no cali mods on them ie "chl" the chin gene that is responsible for giving the points on a Californian rabbit. The pedigreed Cali doe herself may even be hiding a small "c". Line breeding on the buck gives only "cc" from him and you will start getting way more rews than cali's! Even the larger doe that you need to breed in for the size will also put that rew gene there. There will of course be cal marked born and you can select only those but the odds that they carry rew will be higher and higher until there will be little to choose from in each litter. It just narrows your choices from a showing standpoint is all. Patience can also come in many ways, perhaps a larger cal buck will show up on Craigslist or even at the local shelter? It may be cheaper in the long run to not feed anything until a better animal becomes available. I or Devon are not saying they have to be the best show trio going etc. just that a trio closer to the goal may become available somewhere down the line. I think even if just the buck was a good example for a Cal then the other 2 does would work, because no matter how one does this, all the kits will be linebred on the buck no matter what. There are a lot of eyes and ears here that may be able to help with that I am sure!

 

[ottersatin]

I probably should just keep my mouth shut and fingers off of the keyboard,
but I won't! I just have to mention that:
If you can come by a fairly good typed Cali Buck
and two unrelated Does or at least distantly related,
not Sisters. Cousins or aunts would do, breed that Buck to both Does and
save the best two Does and Best Buck out of each litter you will have a good start.
Breed the Sire to the two Daughters and the Dam to the Son.
Save the best two Does and the best buck out of each of those litters.
If you produce two, if not save only the very best typed individuals.
You can cross the two litters together and continue from there.
I hope I have not completely lost you.
This will call for quite a few more cages but you can whittle it down the best you can.
The important thing is to remember to only retain the very best,
you are trying to improve your stock as quickly as possible.
As was stated earlier, you can always eat your mistakes.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[eco2pia]

I was actually thinking of this in terms of the person in Hawaii who had such a genetically limited situation to start with--and my own fun backyard thing of course.

I have no illusions that I will end up with the next national grand champion or something, but as long as I am breeding for the freezer, it might be fun to have a goal, no matter how far-fetched. I think there are alot of people like me on here who will learn a lot from a thread like this.

But yes, just buying a really great trio would be faster/easier. And for someone like me might mean I never started in the first place.

Honestly, the challenge of "starting from scratch" appeals to some of us. I could easily afford to drop a few hundred on a really nice trio. I wouldn't be able to bring myself to eat them(they are too VALUABLE!!), nor could I really sell as many as I could produce(no local market)...And I would loose interest rapidly, I am afraid.

The beauty of inexpensive "starter rabbits" is that, for some of us, you are less afraid of making mistakes and therefore you learn more. And in my high pressure life, having a little low-key fun is precious.

 

[PhoenixFarm]

I am thinking many on this board really understand 'rescue breeding' The nice about rabits, one does not have to wait for what seems like forever for the generations to mature to beeding age.

 

[DevonW]

I believe the hypothetical question was to eventually get rabbits that were registrable. To be registrable the rabbit needs to be considered a purebred 4 Generation Pedigree (every rabbit on the pedigree must have a tattoo number and a weight listed) and only 1 breed of rabbit appear on it. It also has to make the weight for the breed standard and have proper markings. Most importantly it has to be an "accurate representation of the breed" which is checked by a registrar.

In order to maintain the proper weight with the rabbits you have to start with. You would continually have to breed back to the crossbred doe which means it is just going to take that much longer to clean the pedigree to have a purebred animal. This can take many years to correct

With my Bruns because the gene pool is so limited we have to out cross to Champagnes which makes them too big, and the gene is recessive so we don't get the chocolate colour right away. This project is 5 years old and we still don't have a Brun with a pure Brun pedigree. We're close but with a limited gene pool in order to fix certain faults we have to outcross to a breed that can improve it which basically sets you back to square one.

Since the question was for registrable rabbits, it's not going to happen in a certain amount, and in the long run it would have saved money to just have bought a purebred trio to begin with.

 

[Pongo]

I am thinking many on this board really understand 'rescue breeding' The nice about rabits, one does not have to wait for what seems like forever for the generations to mature to beeding age.

what on earth do you mean by "rescue breeding" that's a term I am not at all familiar with<br /><br />__________ Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:12 pm __________<br /><br />

I am thinking many on this board really understand 'rescue breeding' The nice about rabits, one does not have to wait for what seems like forever for the generations to mature to beeding age.

what on earth do you mean by "rescue breeding" that's a term I am not at all familiar with

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

__________ Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:12 pm __________

I am thinking many on this board really understand 'rescue breeding' The nice about rabits, one does not have to wait for what seems like forever for the generations to mature to beeding age.

what on earth do you mean by "rescue breeding" that's a term I am not at all familiar with[/quote]
(sorry i seemed to have wrecked this quote the second part was from Pongo and i really meant that I was echoing her question! )

I have never heard this and it seems to be against what rescues' main objectives really are!

However... there are 2 ways to think of this.. either you are breeding meat mutts for the table or you are breeding to breed standard for either just showing or showing and eating culls. Starting with mutts will get you meat but never in a million years will you get a show quality register-able rabbit out of the deal, sorry that's the way it is; you don't get "something" from nothing. You need strong good building blocks to start with, even if its just one animal. You then STILL need time and patience and the ability to know what to breed with what to correct faults or things you don't like. Also being purebred or showable does not automatically mean that animal is "worth a lot of money" you can still eat your culls, you personally are not going to lose more money as it cost you the same to raise a good quality animal as a poor one. The only way your animals will command very high prices is if you have proven them on the show table and earned a name for yourself. Having a registered animal only means it meets the criteria for the breed not that its valuable or a show winner! So all in all my point is that if you have a goal of breeding purebred then sometimes it pays to wait for something you need for that goal rather than jumping on the first rabbit that crosses ones' path..whatever it may be. Sometimes taking time to observe actually saves one time and money in the long run. I also don't understand the reason for having a goal if its on a totally different path then what has been chosen to follow?
To be honest in this hypothetical situation I am given to understand that there were no further purchases of rabbits in following generations, correct? Basically, this is what I based an answer on in the first place and what I would do in this situation. However, if this is not correct, then things could "change" LOL Figures this occurred to me AFTER all this typing....