How to tell the difference between cchd and cchl?

[alforddm]

Does anyone have any tips for telling the difference between these two? I'm still a little (maybe alot) foggy on how to tell the difference.

Thanks much...

I was thinking one of my does may carry cchl instead of cchd but she also carries c so, since she is black, it has to be cchd right? Because if it was cchlc she would be pointed?

I'd still like hints on how to tell the difference, visually, between the two.

 

[Dood]

cchd stands for C locus, CHinchilla Dark while cchl is CHinchilla Light

cchd (AKA chinchilla) gene inactivated 3 of the 4 yellow pigment cells so these rabbits look more black and white than the cchl (AKA sable) gene which only inactivated 1 of the 4 yellow pigment genes and creates a more sepia/tea/dark brown colour and light cream rather than black and white.

This effect is easy to see in self based rabbits - self chin is a black rabbit while a seal or Siamese sable are dark brown. Sallanders are a "cleaner" or "crisper" white/cream and grey/black points while sable points are "muddier" looking cream and brown points

In agouti rabbits it can be harder to tell the difference but the sable agouti tend to be "muddier" or smutty looking.

Frostys that are sable based have browner ticking on the tips of their fur, while the chinchilla based are black.

Sable based magpies (first picture) are also more smutty looking and lack clear definition between white and black areas compared to chinchilla based ones (second picture)

 

[akane]

Sable agoutis don't get the full markings. They are more tipped than barred and they often have shading instead of solid color across the body. From a distance my sable based nonextension rabbits (frosty, ermine, whatever) look solid white but my true chinchilla ermines have visible tinting. It's because of the difference in ticking and bars of color on the hairs.

chl left next to a regular chd


I'm told he's a particularly light one though so not all are as easy to tell and I didn't realize it when I bought him young. Also you can see the red tint to the eyes being brought out by the camera in the sable but not the chin which instead often have a blue or grey tint. Using a flashlight can sometimes show you the ruby added to the eyes by chl.

Self are easy to tell. A self chl is sable and a self chd is black, blue, lilac, chocolate... The only difficulty is when you have chlchl because seals are near black. Until you've set a seal next to a true black it can be hard to recognize them.

 

[fhjmom]

Here is a good article explaining the C loci genes:

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-genetics/color-c-series-chinchilla-sable-himalayan-rew/

Are you saying the rabbit in question is completely solid black? If so, then it has to have a "C". You said you know it carries "c", so if it is a black self, the genetics would be Cc. (Sometimes there are other genes that make a not-genetically-black self rabbit appear black, but that is a whole different cam of worms I wasn't going to open unless there was a reason to.)

What color are the parents?

 

[akane]

Are you saying the rabbit in question is completely solid black? If so, then it has to have a "C".

Not true. The chinchilla gene, chd, with 2 self genes makes a rabbit look like a C gene self.

 

[alforddm]

Actually she is an Agouti Steel (proven by breeding) but you'd never know by looking at her. She is ESej (or e) Aa Bb Has thrown chocolate steels lightly marked torted harlequin and a chocolate magpie when breed to a lilac standard rex buck. Don't know for sure if the ej came from her and e from the buck or the other way around.

When bred to my Silver Tipped Steel buck she never had a full color kit only chinchillas and silver tipped steels, and blacks (or more hidden steels lol). <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:59 pm __________ <br /><br /> Ok, so cchlc rabbits are lighter than cchlcchl rabbits right? What does a cchlc look like on a chestnut base?

 

[fhjmom]

Are you saying the rabbit in question is completely solid black? If so, then it has to have a "C".

Not true. The chinchilla gene, chd, with 2 self genes makes a rabbit look like a C gene self.

Exactly, that's why I said there were other genes that could make a non-genetically black self rabbit look black. Since the OP said that the rabbit was black, I took that to mean it was black and not one of these other possibilities.

 

[akane]

The op is asking about a black rabbit they believe to be chd. The entire thread is about chd and chl so obviously they should be taken into consideration and not lumped with all those other things that cause off blacks that we don't need to mention.

 

[Zinnia]

Actually she is an Agouti Steel (proven by breeding) but you'd never know by looking at her. She is ESej (or e) Aa Bb Has thrown chocolate steels lightly marked torted harlequin and a chocolate magpie when breed to a lilac standard rex buck. Don't know for sure if the ej came from her and e from the buck or the other way around.

When bred to my Silver Tipped Steel buck she never had a full color kit only chinchillas and silver tipped steels, and blacks (or more hidden steels lol).

__________ Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:59 pm __________

Ok, so cchlc rabbits are lighter than cchlcchl rabbits right? What does a cchlc look like on a chestnut base?

If she is throwing Agouti bred to a non-Agouti buck and you know she carries REW, then I'd assume A----Cc, unless you have a reason to believe she carries Chinchilla... Maybe you are asking is she could be a hidden Silver-tipped Steel (appearing Self Black)? I think it will be hard to know the answer until you breed her to another buck, since he's a Silver-tipped Steel.

 

[alforddm]

If she is throwing Agouti bred to a non-Agouti buck and you know she carries REW, then I'd assume A----Cc, unless you have a reason to believe she carries Chinchilla... Maybe you are asking is she could be a hidden Silver-tipped Steel (appearing Self Black)? I think it will be hard to know the answer until you breed her to another buck, since he's a Silver-tipped Steel.

She has only thrown chinchillas, silver tipped steels, blacks or REW when bred to a silver tipped steel buck, who is cchdc. Out of 22 kits there have been NO full color kits only chinchilla, silver tipped steel and REW. Plus, she threw a magpie when bred to my lilac buck who threw full color and REW kits when bred to my himi doe. I'm positive she is has no full color gene. Was just trying to figure out if she carried cchd or cchl.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I said she was black because her phenotype is black thus I figured the chinchilla genes (both dark and light) would affect her coloration the same as if her genotype were black.


I'm still a bit unclear on what a black cchl rabbit that also carries REW would look like? I thought a read somewhere that cchl acted as a semidominant when paired with c but I can't remember where I read it.

 

[Zinnia]

So, you are just unsure if she's a Silver Tipped Steel, herself or a Steel... ummm... whatever Steel Sable Chin would be :shock:

Well, let us know if you find out. I've got Sable and Steel... hoping to keep them far, far away from each other.

 

[Dood]

If your doe looks self black and is A_ B_ cch? c D_ Es e? It will be nearly impossible to tell if she is sable or chinchilla just by looking at her.

Some steel sable agouti, who are not as dark, will look like Siamese sables with agouti ticking :shock:

To test breed you need a REW or himilayan coloured buck and see what you get

 

[alforddm]

I did have a couple of kits in the litter from my lilac buck that look pointed but have bluish eyes. I wasn't sure if they were frosty or light chinchilla. I'll try to get a couple of pics today. <br /><br /> __________ Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:50 pm __________ <br /><br /> I finally remembered to drag my camera with me when I went up to the rabbits. There is another one colored like this but i think is a chocolate base.

 

[akane]

I'm still a bit unclear on what a black cchl rabbit that also carries REW would look like? I thought a read somewhere that cchl acted as a semidominant when paired with c but I can't remember where I read it.

It doesn't matter what a particular pair of c genes are. Only the most dominant is visible with chlchl being the exception of different from chlch and chlc. There has been some question of ch or c resulting in a different shade of chl but nearly everyone I know uses ch as the pairing for all their sable rabbits. The shade still varies a lot. This is a chlch rabbit and this is her full sibling that is also chlch.

The chlc rabbits I've seen look exactly the same. Sure they have their own unique shade but it doesn't seem connected to ch or c. It's just the individual rabbit. If you want to know if any type of sable (black, blue, agouti-sable chin, marten...) has ch or c as the second gene you will need to breed to a rew. Same with chd.

 

[alforddm]

Thank you akane that was what I was trying to figure out. Since I know from breeding that my doe is cch(d or l) c (has thrown rews) She has to be cchd because she is visually (not genetically) black. If she was cchlc she would appear like one of the rabbits you posted.

 

[Dimplz]

She has only thrown chinchillas, silver tipped steels, blacks or REW when bred to a silver tipped steel buck, who is cchdc. Out of 22 kits there have been NO full color kits only chinchilla, silver tipped steel and REW. Plus, she threw a magpie when bred to my lilac buck who threw full color and REW kits when bred to my himi doe. I'm positive she is has no full color gene. Was just trying to figure out if she carried cchd or cchl.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I said she was black because her phenotype is black thus I figured the chinchilla genes (both dark and light) would affect her coloration the same as if her genotype were black.


I'm still a bit unclear on what a black cchl rabbit that also carries REW would look like? I thought a read somewhere that cchl acted as a semidominant when paired with c but I can't remember where I read it.

The rabbit in my profile pic is a black cchl carrying rew. It is called Siamese Sable. aaBBcchlcD_E_

 

[Dimplz]

Here are examples of what the cchl gene will do to coat color on a solid self, two agoutis and a broken self. One of those agoutis is also a steel.

The first is a non-steel, self rabbit with cchl & c. This rabbit is called a Siamese Sable.

The next 3 pics are of my non-steel agouti. The combination of the agouti pattern, and the sable gene create Sable Chinchilla.

The next 3 pics are my silver tipped steel shaded agouti. The combination of the agouti, sable, and steel genes creates a Silver Tipped Steel.

The last 3 pics are a Broken Siamese Sable. So genetically the same as the self cchl, only broken.