How to deal with poop and pee (indoor, unneutered)

[LunarFantom]

So I'm trying to get rabbits going and I'm starting with very large wire cages for when I scale up (but only starting with a few rabbits). It's very very VERY cold where I live to the point where keeping rabbits outside year long is basically unheard of. (Trying and having them freeze to death though is very heard of).

I can't neuter them because their purpose is breeding, but they really don't take to litter boxes well. (1/3 buns actually used it sometimes. One tried to eat the (yesterday's news) litter and the other picked each piece up and threw it out of the cage. Bill Cipher is my troublemaker bun)

I've tried keeping a tarp beneath their cage with various kinds of litter (rabbit safe litter, literal shredded newspaper, dirt with worms in a desperate attempt at composting, various scoopable litters) but the poops sits upon the liter, sometimes they spill water and food, and because of the massive size of the cages, its very VERY hard to clean up under said cages. (I have to crawl and even then I can't reach the center very well)

I'm thinking of maybe suspending all the cages, and angling the tarps so they fall into a bucket? That sounds like it will get very smelly very fast. Even if I put litter or something to neutralize the smell in the bucket, the tarp will just get disgusting right? But then, washing the tarp in the winter is very hard since, you can't just go outside and spray it with the hose. (I've tried everything from washing machines, to showers, to very large sinks to wash tarps. Doesn't work. Tarps that big need to be laid flat to be cleaned) Can I like.. put some cleaning solution in a spray bottle and spray the tarp while its still hanging?

I don't get it, how do you indoor breeders do it? :lol:

 

[Shea]

A piece of solid material as a slant board would work better then a tarp and can be scraped or brushed clean, sealed plywood, coroplast, roofing, etc.

Where do you live that it gets so cold rabbits are known to freeze to death?

 

[akane]

I've had litters survive in -30F in wire cages just out of the wind and we see -40F on occasion, which is the same in C. Never lost a rabbit besides young kits..... Windchill is another matter but far more easily solved. Most just don't breed in the winter.

Rabbits indoors in giant cages you can't reach would be an utter nightmare. Not worth it. I'd never do a cage more than 24-30" if I can't reach 2 sides. Having had to repaint every wall I put rabbits in front of and some floors. The problem I really have is no matter how much you seal or contain the floor they will pee out the walls or leak down the walls without going into the bottom. I had the legs of an indoor hutch sitting in plastic containers of barn lime because while it had solid walls except the front and a tray under a wire floor they sprayed the back wall and it ran down the to the legs and the floor. I'd end up with containers full of pee to dump. Even does don't pee straight down. It gets everywhere. Dirt sticks to it and then you have a cruddy brown/yellow layer within a week or 2 that can never be fully scrubbed off.

Finding I can't do rabbits outdoors in town without issues I hope to build completely sealed, solid walled cages except the tops and fronts. Then I plan to do wire or round metal conduit as a bar floor and trays under. All that is needed in trays under wire or slat/bar flooring is something to neutralize urine like a safe crushed limestone such as "barn lime" and "aglime" as they are often called or a zeolite such as sweet pdz. Under open wire rather than trays you could just do sections like suggested of corrugated plastic, metal sheets, or I've sealed wood with enamel for years against small mammal pee and damage. If you make it in multiple panels you can remove them one by one to rinse in the shower. Using bedding I do a very deep pan, probably at least 6", with pine pellets they can chew all they want. If necessary top with a layer of shavings to help keep them from being kicked around but it's the least efficient and will result in a ton of bedding building up by spring.

 

[LunarFantom]

A piece of solid material as a slant board would work better then a tarp and can be scraped or brushed clean, sealed plywood, coroplast, roofing, etc.

Where do you live that it gets so cold rabbits are known to freeze to death?

Veeery far north in Maine. I have heard way too many horror stories from farmers who tried keeping them outside. The only "success" story I've heard was the person who released them literally into the yard with no fence. They dug burrows and seem to survive every year. (obviously I'm not doing that).

I could use a slant board but I think it'd be almost impossible to clean? It'd need to be the same dimensions as the cage... plus a few inches on each side. The cages are 102X24inches across. Maybe I just need longer arms, but I definitely can't reach that far. (I've been trying for weeks, It's not going well.)

Also, slant board or not, what DO you clean said things with? I doubt I can just remove said board when it needs to be cleaned, so I'd presumably wash it there, bleach or vinegar? I'm not sure what I could use that wouldn't be a inhalant danger to the rabbits.

 

[Shea]

Akane has some very good points. As long as you keep rabbits out of the wind and dry they should be fine outside. And barn lime is great at urine odor control.
Modular boards or plastic roofing would probably be the easiest to deal with if you had to. You can use a long handled carwash brush to scrub them. I do tend to lean towards vinegar for cleaning but whatever works for you.
Is your cage 24" deep?

 

[akane]

Lots of people in Iowa keep them outdoors regularly in equally cold or often worse temps several months out of the year. The midwest does not have an ocean to stabilize it so aside from Alaska and a few cities in mountains no part of the US really gets colder. Provided rabbits can get out of wind and you don't let them get rain or snow on them they seem to do fine. Really those borderline temps where it's still wet but dropping below freezing are trickier than the solid cold because it becomes more important to keep weather off them. Wet animals will chill much much faster than dry ones and frostbite risk can be worse if it's barely freezing during the day and dropping at night than if it's steadily around 0F or slightly below. Most fully enclose their cages, cage area, or use a building but some do fine putting in very large hide boxes stuffed with straw. I got some rabbits from a person with long wire cages sitting open on top of a hill with no wind break that just had large boxes of straw in each. Even in Minnesota I picked up rabbits housed the same as mine in a large barn with the doors left open year round day and night and no hide boxes. It broke up the wind and prevented all precipitation from reaching them enough they had no issues provided you don't try to get litters out of them in Jan.

Urine is alkaline calcium so you want acidic things or anything meant to dissolve calcium water deposits. What you are applying it to is often a bigger issue than fumes around the rabbits unless you are really dumping a lot with poor air flow so it stays contained. Eventually you can give yourself or the animals damage with vinegar but first hand knowledge that it takes a lot and you have to be very stupid about it. (using several bottles in a closed basement while practically sticking my head into solid walled 4' cages and aquariums to scrub them for hours) You'll break down some metals faster with acidic cleaners though. Usually vinegar is plenty to remove smell and majority of build up but it rarely strips it utterly clean and it will dissolve unprotected or already rusting metal. Fine for good stainless steel that hasn't been damaged, plastics, or paint it in something like rustoleum enamel for instant waterproofing that works like plastic. Also works on wood with less frequent need to touch it up year to year since it doesn't scrape off as easy. I've sealed up regular plywood in enamel and had it last as animal cages for years if you don't hit it with anything sharp enough to get through the coating.

 

[LunarFantom]

Lots of people in Iowa keep them outdoors regularly in equally cold or often worse temps several months out of the year

I visited Iowa for Christmas. Child's play by comparison. Up here I'd have to dig snowtrenches every year to just reach the rabbits, the snowblower would probably scare them to death, and keeping them DRY in the Winter? Impossible! Even with a really REALLY big roof, the wind WILL blow snow into their wire cage. I'd need a wooden hutch for warmth/minor snow protection, and then maybe a tarp all the way around for good measure. Nope.

As for slant boards... *frantically googles various materials* I... see these tin roofings, but shipping is crazy high. I see corrugated plastic but its all too small, except the ones at homedepot but impressively I seem to live in SUCH the middle of nowhere, that they don't ship here. For sealed plywood... sealed how? Varnish? :?

 

[Shea]

No lowes or othertype store near you? The plastic roof would be this https://m.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-PolyC...ated-PolyCarbonate-Plastic-Roof-Panel/3043807

You would want to use an enamel paint or at least an oil based if you can find one. Varnish and polyurethanes may work but tend to chip if flexed.
I would be interested in seeing a picture of your set up, there may be other options we could offer.

 

[akane]

Depends on the year. I've seen snow higher than my truck and drifts to the second level of the house or over a trailer. :lol: Some years we get inches, some years we get feet, some years it is only around a few weeks, and some years you don't go anywhere for a month or 2 while trudging up to your waist. Really the ice storms are worse when the temp is fluctuating. That wiped out power across the county we lived in by snapping more power poles than the state had to replace. We had to bucket and carry enough water for 8 horses and anything else straight out of the well access nearly the entire month after chipping paths into the 2' ice encased snow. I'm glad I had less joint problems then. :roll: Minnesota gets far more consistent snow and cold. If you happen to miss the couple weeks it's -20 here it might be 60F in Feb 2 weeks later only to then be 0F the next week. It snowed already this year but is 70F again.

Like I said for sealing things enamel such as rustoleum works well. An $8 quart does a lot of plywood or metal sheets. I've had it hold on wood for 10 years around guinea pigs, rabbits, and poultry and am doing some reptile enclosures the same way recently. There are also a ton of polyurethanes that work but are harder to find versions that are safe for contact with animals. I only found marine polyurethane once but it's used to seal plywood for saltwater coral growout tanks so quite waterproof and durable while being certainly nontoxic after those tests. It's less of an issue using various urethanes on something they don't touch since once dry they are as safe to be near as anything else. They can have mold inhibitors or other ingredients though that might be bad to touch constantly or especially lick and chew. The polyurethane deck paints will probably not damage as easy as enamel does because they dry to a harder coat. Nearly every hardware store has at least one, if not 5 versions, of waterproofing polurethane and generally enamel for metal and wood. You can scrape into enamel but it takes force and usually a metal or stone edge to go through a full coat and it can always be touched up. The only reason I don't still have those same enamel coated plywood frames I made at least 10 years ago is that I didn't seal where I screwed them together and eventually that leaked moisture into the thin, cheap plywood to rot the edges. This time I went back over the screws after putting it together.

The lack of sources of coro and other materials in the middle of nowhere is why I started sealing wood. If you want big coro sheets you have to find custom sign shops and ask to buy their stock material to avoid the freight shipping cost. Guineapigcages.com used to keep a database of large coro sheet suppliers. Harborsales.com will also custom cut down to a size that does not require freight shipping for a reasonable price and they have numerous other plastics they do that with but you are then limited to standard shipping size pieces. I was using duct tape to seal the separate pieces back together for large cages. Coro is convenient, already waterproof, easy to modify, and lightweight if you can get it but not as durable. In 3-5years depending on use you often need new coro while properly sealed plywood is heavier and requires painting with drying time but local, inexpensive, and lasts longer. I know metal roofing and siding comes in smaller pieces or some can be cut but I've never sourced the various options to know what and where to look for it.

 

[LunarFantom]

No lowes or othertype store near you? The plastic roof would be this https://m.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-PolyC...ated-PolyCarbonate-Plastic-Roof-Panel/3043807

You would want to use an enamel paint or at least an oil based if you can find one. Varnish and polyurethanes may work but tend to chip if flexed.
I would be interested in seeing a picture of your set up, there may be other options we could offer.

We do have a lowes. Thanks for the link.*tries to order online* Uhhh hrm, it would appear I need as much bandwidth as your average overwatch player to utilize this site. *tries desperately every time the ping raises*

*2 days later* Theeeere we go. They sent me 3 confirmation emails in the span of a second, so I'll hope they're on their way. XD While I'm waiting... tips on hanging wire cages that don't swing back and forth?

I'm suspecting my issue is I'm using copper wire to suspend... does it only work with a stiffer material? Or will it settle down if I tie it does from enough angles?

 

[Preitler]

If you add wires crosswise between the vertical wires it should get pretty stiff.

 

[LunarFantom]

If you add wires crosswise between the vertical wires it should get pretty stiff.

Ooh good idea. I'll use those for the lower cages then.

Um... I tried the slant board. I feel like I'm doing it wrong.

The "board" isn't flat, it curves, which.. makes me unsure how to attach gutters? Am I screwing these on or using more copper wire....?

 

[Shea]

Normally when using slant boards they run the depth of the cage not the width so it is a shorter span to warp and poop to bind up on.
Is there anyway you could make a frame for the cages instead of hanging? That way you would have something to secure the boards to and the cages wouldnt swing so bad. I know there is a post on here somewhere of hanging cages with a pvc frame, or you could use 2x2s or something similar. <br /><br /> -- Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:13 am -- <br /><br /> The first link in this post is a good picture of a similar system. http://rabbittalk.com/need-help-building-this-hutch-design-t31118.html?hilit=slant board#p310650
If you search slant board in the search bar it will bring up all the posts on this forum about them. Most will have pictures.

 

[LunarFantom]

Normally when using slant boards they run the depth of the cage not the width so it is a shorter span to warp and poop to bind up on.

I find this concept... confusing.

Like... do I cut the slant boards into chunks and stack em side by side...?

 

[Shea]

Pretty much. Or you can attach a piece of board or something stiff to either end as you have it now so it dosent warp/bow.

 

[Nymphadora]

Like... do I cut the slant boards into chunks and stack em side by side...?

In essence... yes.

Here's an example that OneAcreFarm posted back in 2011:

 

[akane]

It's easier to support and clean if everything slopes from back to front. Gravity even works in your favor to have the weight pulling straight across the front rather than a single narrow end. That's also why I said you could probably cut the pieces down to fit in a shower. They only have to be the front to back width of the cage in however many pieces provided they fit tight or have a frame to help seal the joints. If you just slot or rest each panel into a light frame you should be able to prevent leaks and remove them at least relatively quickly but even a single piece slanting down to the front should be easier to rinse in place. You can reach the whole thing from one side with minimal distance and nothing will get stuck where it's bending or angling together.