How much should I expect of my kids?

[BlueLove16]

I am a SAHM.

I have an 18mo old and 4.6 year old (their birthdays are july 12 and july 14..lol)

They share a room which is where their toys are. i have slowly bought things when i have the money for shelves, totes, ect.

So, now, I have most of their small toys sorted into plastic shoe boxes from walmart: LPS, LPS Accecories, MLP, Cars, Legos, And I have drawers for Scleich & other hard/plastic animals, kitchen and doll drawer. then baby and misc drawer. then puzzles, books, coloring books all sorted. i have it all suuuper nice and their room looks organized..yay me!

Ok, but the actual point of the thread. i have my oldest pick up the toys in their room and i help a bit telling her what to pick up (we go by category) but she gets upset because a lot is ripped out by her little sister and i do tell her i know she didnt make the mess, but she still doesnt like having to pick up after her.

My oldest is expected to feed and water her rats, the cat, and the dog.
She is expected to at least put all pillows, blankets, and chosen bed stuffed animal companions on the bed and not floor.
She is expected to put everything in the spot it goes and a few times a day i make her go through the house and gather her toys in a bucket that are outside her room that we sort later.
Then she has to get all the stray dishes and laundury and help me sort and put hangers on

But i also expect her to watch her sister when i do dishes, take dog out, go to the bathroom, ect. Never leave the house..but i feel bad expecting her to babysit her sister sometimes, but she behaves better for charlee than me...if that somehow makes sense. she copies EVERYTHING she does...just to test it last night watching tv peyton pulled a blanket over her and charlee..charlee put her legs out, so peyton did, put her legs under, peyton did, put one leg out and peyton did...

but i feel like i expect too much of her sometimes. peyton helps cleaning but you gotta stay on her and remind her a lot cause she gets sidetracked.

blah.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I am a SAHM.

I have an 18mo old and 4.6 year old (their birthdays are july 12 and july 14..lol)

They share a room which is where their toys are. i have slowly bought things when i have the money for shelves, totes, ect.

So, now, I have most of their small toys sorted into plastic shoe boxes from walmart: LPS, LPS Accecories, MLP, Cars, Legos, And I have drawers for Scleich & other hard/plastic animals, kitchen and doll drawer. then baby and misc drawer. then puzzles, books, coloring books all sorted. i have it all suuuper nice and their room looks organized..yay me!

Ok, but the actual point of the thread. i have my oldest pick up the toys in their room and i help a bit telling her what to pick up (we go by category) but she gets upset because a lot is ripped out by her little sister and i do tell her i know she didnt make the mess, but she still doesnt like having to pick up after her.

My oldest is expected to feed and water her rats, the cat, and the dog.
She is expected to at least put all pillows, blankets, and chosen bed stuffed animal companions on the bed and not floor.
She is expected to put everything in the spot it goes and a few times a day i make her go through the house and gather her toys in a bucket that are outside her room that we sort later.
Then she has to get all the stray dishes and laundury and help me sort and put hangers on

But i also expect her to watch her sister when i do dishes, take dog out, go to the bathroom, ect. Never leave the house..but i feel bad expecting her to babysit her sister sometimes, but she behaves better for charlee than me...if that somehow makes sense. she copies EVERYTHING she does...just to test it last night watching tv peyton pulled a blanket over her and charlee..charlee put her legs out, so peyton did, put her legs under, peyton did, put one leg out and peyton did...

but i feel like i expect too much of her sometimes. peyton helps cleaning but you gotta stay on her and remind her a lot cause she gets sidetracked.

blah.

I am not a SAHM, so my situation is different, but I think maybe you could be expecting a *tad* too much from a 4.5yr old. I have three kids, 16, 10, & 9. My daughter was 6 when my boys came along, but even then, I only expected her to do for herself, and then only certain things, pick up and put away her own toys, make her bed, bring her dishes to the sink, etc. The only things I had her do related to the boys was fetch a diaper, hold a bottle, come tell me if they were crying or watch the carrier or highchair while I went to the bathroom. I took care of the younger ones chores until she was old enough to want to earn some allowance by helping out. It wasn't much, but it made her feel good to be "earning money" on her own. Peyton is the younger one? She gets sidetracked because that is what kids her age do... They are busy, busy, busy! Very curious and interested in everything. We did the "Clean Up" song with our little ones starting at 2yrs using the bucket to gather all toys together and then put them away. That seemed to help keep their interest and make it fun.

 

[Happy]

I am a sentient adult human male, myself.

Sorting seems a bit much. At 4, picking up should be limited in how much is sorted. I did "big toys" and "small toys" until I got a bucket of legos, then it was big, small, lego. Having the kids play in the other room is cool while you do dishes, but you have to keep an ear on it (not saying you don't, just saying you should). It sounds to me like the dog could be an issue. IDK how big of a task it is to feed the animals, but I do know that taking the dog for a walk and leaving a 4 year old and 1 year old alone is probably not going to fare well for you in the end. You mihgt want to look into adopting the dog out or something.

And I also have to thank you. This thread has made me rethink how I do my kids. Mine are older, but are still asked a lot. Thank you for making me rethink that.

 

[Bad Habit]

I am a sentient adult human male, myself.

Sorting seems a bit much. At 4, picking up should be limited in how much is sorted. I did "big toys" and "small toys" until I got a bucket of legos, then it was big, small, lego. Having the kids play in the other room is cool while you do dishes, but you have to keep an ear on it (not saying you don't, just saying you should). It sounds to me like the dog could be an issue. IDK how big of a task it is to feed the animals, but I do know that taking the dog for a walk and leaving a 4 year old and 1 year old alone is probably not going to fare well for you in the end. You mihgt want to look into adopting the dog out or something.

And I also have to thank you. This thread has made me rethink how I do my kids. Mine are older, but are still asked a lot. Thank you for making me rethink that.

I didn't take her comment about "taking the dog out" as taking the dog for a walk, but taking the dog outside to potty in their own yard.

 

[jollysrabbits]

this is just my take, and what my parents did with my sister and I. I was told to pick up any of my toys ( they all had their place) and my mom would "help" pick up my younger sisters toys( 6 years younger). lesson learned was that its not my job to clean up after her but it is my job to be a big brother and help her. I am sure this all sounds silly but put yourself in a child's shoes. here you are playing and having a good time with your sibling and when play time is over you have to take a whole 10-15 minutes to clean both of your messes. 10-15 minutes is a long time to a kid. I remember getting a whoopin and then a timeout for 5 minutes. I am ADD I would have preferred 2 whoopins and then let me be on my way. LOL

 

[OneAcreFarm]

It sounds to me like the dog could be an issue. IDK how big of a task it is to feed the animals, but I do know that taking the dog for a walk and leaving a 4 year old and 1 year old alone is probably not going to fare well for you in the end. You mihgt want to look into adopting the dog out or something.

And I also have to thank you. This thread has made me rethink how I do my kids. Mine are older, but are still asked a lot. Thank you for making me rethink that.

I didn't take her comment about "taking the dog out" as taking the dog for a walk, but taking the dog outside to potty in their own yard.

Yeah, that was how I read it as well...<br /><br />__________ Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:09 am __________<br /><br />

I am a sentient adult human male, myself.

:lol:

 

[BlueLove16]

I didnt give as much detail as i should...

Take the dog out means...open the back door and stand on the back porch while he does his thing. We dont have a fence and hes really good about staying in the yard but i wont let him out without supervision. Adopting my dog out or any of my pets isnt an option...their family not furniture. And after a certain incident regarding me in the park with the kids and some very creepy guy...well my dog got super defensive (which is rare) and the guy literally ran to his car. he even protects the girls when it comes to other dogs. so ya...

My house is SUPER tiny. Their rarely in their room alone together and its normally bringing toys out to living room, but i still have a wall blocking my veiw of the whole LR and i tend to zone out when i clean..super bad habit.

And the sorting thing...they do really well with help. even Peyton, who is the youngest, if we are working on one thing..say LPS & accecories, she knows which goes in which and how to seperate them. And their seperated because the acc. tend to be small and i dont like them out unless i am right there with them. and i think its good for them to learn from the start that things have their place and dont just get thrown into a box and the added benefit of not having a toy bin be dumped and rummaged through to find a few toys so we can play with just them.


And after typing everything out and thinking on it, i think i do expect to much. Idk if i just get overwhelmed with what i am expected to do so try to make her help so i can get things done without interuption<br /><br />__________ Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:26 pm __________<br /><br />

this is just my take, and what my parents did with my sister and I. I was told to pick up any of my toys ( they all had their place) and my mom would "help" pick up my younger sisters toys( 6 years younger). lesson learned was that its not my job to clean up after her but it is my job to be a big brother and help her. I am sure this all sounds silly but put yourself in a child's shoes. here you are playing and having a good time with your sibling and when play time is over you have to take a whole 10-15 minutes to clean both of your messes. 10-15 minutes is a long time to a kid. I remember getting a whoopin and then a timeout for 5 minutes. I am ADD I would have preferred 2 whoopins and then let me be on my way. LOL

Thats a really helpful insight so i thank you for that. when i grew up my sister was 2 years younger. We werent ever forced or encouraged to clean our rooms and the house was tidy but not super clean like i try to keep mine now..which has been a huge struggle bc i am not a very tidy and clean person.

i could prob survive a week trapped in my car if that says anything

I dont spank generally and we dont do a lot of timeouts bc they just dont help anything. We have a reward system set up.do good, you get a diamond in the jar, bad and you loose one. it works a lot better.

but ya...i spend 3-5 hours a day cleaning, sorting, putting things away..so the added work of picking up after them is not helpful lol

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I didnt give as much detail as i should...

Take the dog out means...open the back door and stand on the back porch while he does his thing. We dont have a fence and hes really good about staying in the yard but i wont let him out without supervision. Adopting my dog out or any of my pets isnt an option...their family not furniture. And after a certain incident regarding me in the park with the kids and some very creepy guy...well my dog got super defensive (which is rare) and the guy literally ran to his car. he even protects the girls when it comes to other dogs. so ya...

My house is SUPER tiny. Their rarely in their room alone together and its normally bringing toys out to living room, but i still have a wall blocking my veiw of the whole LR and i tend to zone out when i clean..super bad habit.

And the sorting thing...they do really well with help. even Peyton, who is the youngest, if we are working on one thing..say LPS & accecories, she knows which goes in which and how to seperate them. And their seperated because the acc. tend to be small and i dont like them out unless i am right there with them. and i think its good for them to learn from the start that things have their place and dont just get thrown into a box and the added benefit of not having a toy bin be dumped and rummaged through to find a few toys so we can play with just them.


And after typing everything out and thinking on it, i think i do expect to much. Idk if i just get overwhelmed with what i am expected to do so try to make her help so i can get things done without interuption

__________ Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:26 pm __________

this is just my take, and what my parents did with my sister and I. I was told to pick up any of my toys ( they all had their place) and my mom would "help" pick up my younger sisters toys( 6 years younger). lesson learned was that its not my job to clean up after her but it is my job to be a big brother and help her. I am sure this all sounds silly but put yourself in a child's shoes. here you are playing and having a good time with your sibling and when play time is over you have to take a whole 10-15 minutes to clean both of your messes. 10-15 minutes is a long time to a kid. I remember getting a whoopin and then a timeout for 5 minutes. I am ADD I would have preferred 2 whoopins and then let me be on my way. LOL

Thats a really helpful insight so i thank you for that. when i grew up my sister was 2 years younger. We werent ever forced or encouraged to clean our rooms and the house was tidy but not super clean like i try to keep mine now..which has been a huge struggle bc i am not a very tidy and clean person.

i could prob survive a week trapped in my car if that says anything

I dont spank generally and we dont do a lot of timeouts bc they just dont help anything. We have a reward system set up.do good, you get a diamond in the jar, bad and you loose one. it works a lot better.

but ya...i spend 3-5 hours a day cleaning, sorting, putting things away..so the added work of picking up after them is not helpful lol

I hear you, and it DOES get better as they get older, but unfortunately that seems the be the life of a Mom of young kids. Being that I work outside the home too, I have had to just be satisfied that things are generally tidy and basically hygenic. I learned really fast that I am NOT SuperMom and won't ever be that, if I intend to actually spend time with my kids that is enjoyable. I have a helpful spouse, to that is a plus as well. Here is a link to a site I love...Power of Moms!...with a helpful way to organize things...

http://powerofmoms.com/2013/01/seven-st ... dium=email

 

[Frecs]

First, I have never been blessed with children of my own. I have, though, been a houseparent in a group home for abused/neglected children. So, you decide if my advise is of any value (most folks tend to disregard it with a "you aren't a mom" shrug of dismissal so I'm used to that).

The children I helped care for were ages 6 to 12years. They lived in "cottages" of nine girls (or boys) and houseparents. Cottage and dining hall chores were determined by age/ability. Everyone did something.

Every child made their own bed upon rising in the morning. No, they didn't have to do military corners, but they did have to make it look neat. They also had to clean their room (which meant everything in its place and nothing on the floors or dresser tops). In addition, they had one "cottage duty" to do before they left for school. It might be dusting, or vacuuming, or cleaning the bathroom...the cottage was kept quite clean. "Dining Hall" duty might be to set the tables or to put the food out...or to clear the tables (the JR and SR high kids did the dish washing and floor mopping). The elementary boys cottage had 9 boys all with ADD or ADHD with 6 of them on meds -- they still did all the aforementioned chores.

Kids can and, in my humble opinion, should be expected to help around the house in accordance to their abilities. I think people get twisted when I share my experience because it then challenges their insistence that their child(ren) can't be made to do anything. Well, that's their problem if they can't get their children to do a few things around the house. As my father always said, "you live here, you help maintain it". (And, my father never paid us to do chores. Chores were expected. Never got rewarded for good grades, either, because that was expected.)

Are you asking too much of your 4.6year old? Yeah, I think so...a little. Yes, the child certainly should pick up her own toys. But, I would not expect her to clean up her sibling's toys. Sorting might be beyond her skill level depending on what level of sorting is expected. Help feed the animals? Sure...with supervision. Gather dishes and laundry...I'm sure that is within her ability. (My stepsister washed dishes at age 3--because she wanted to. She got water all over the floor in the process but the dishes were clean and we had to mop anyway.) I think the problem lies more in the total load of what is expected of her. It "sounds" excessive. It may not be in reality. Each thing might only take her 5 minutes and so be just fine. A good gauge of this can be in the child's attitude about it...if she is acting like she is living at the Labor Farm then you might be overboard! ;-) If, on the other hand, she thinks helping mommy is fun (like my sister thought washing dishes was fun rather for work)...you are on target.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

First, I have never been blessed with children of my own. I have, though, been a houseparent in a group home for abused/neglected children. So, you decide if my advise is of any value (most folks tend to disregard it with a "you aren't a mom" shrug of dismissal so I'm used to that). The children I helped care for were ages 6 to 12years. They lived in "cottages" of nine girls (or boys) and houseparents. Cottage and dining hall chores were determined by age/ability. Everyone did something.

I call that "Parenting" and say you definitely WERE a MOM!

 

[Frecs]

First, I have never been blessed with children of my own. I have, though, been a houseparent in a group home for abused/neglected children. So, you decide if my advise is of any value (most folks tend to disregard it with a "you aren't a mom" shrug of dismissal so I'm used to that). The children I helped care for were ages 6 to 12years. They lived in "cottages" of nine girls (or boys) and houseparents. Cottage and dining hall chores were determined by age/ability. Everyone did something.

I call that "Parenting" and say you definitely WERE a MOM!

Thanks. I loved those kids so much. I can still see their faces. They will forever have a place in my heart.

 

[Miss M]

I call that "Parenting" and say you definitely WERE a MOM!

I agree!

I don't know that you are asking too much of her... it does depend some on the child, but all children should be asked to help out from an early age. 100 years ago, 2-year-olds were hauling water from the well. I wouldn't ask that of a 2-year-old, but we actually ask a lot less of kids these days than we used to... and that may be a bad thing in some respects.

 

[Dood]

I was the eldest of 5.

I don't think you are asking too much in regard to house hold chores but I always resented having to clean up after and supervise/babysit my younger siblings and for getting scolded or punished when they did something bad or got themselves hurt.

I would watch out for them just out love but I wish my parents only expected me to tell them of my siblings getting into trouble so the adults could deal with it rather than expect me to be a co-parent and order them around.

 

[Demamma]

I have 6 children ages 9-20 now. I am cleaning challenged. I have a hard housecleaning as I forget what I am doing or wander from room to room. My oldest is a wonderful house cleaner. She was very responsible at a young age and by age 6could do her laundry and change diapers and fix bottles. She is amazing. She also resented if I had Her clean up after her siblings. I found that if I asked her to help train a sibling it went a lot better. Even now I pair up a younger kid with Older to learn how to do stuff. According to today's standards yes she is doing too much but I think you are doing good. remember lots of praise.

 

[mystang89]

I agree with much of what Frec says. I'm a stay at home dad of 5 kids 5 and under. From 2 - 5 they help pick each other's toys up. It doesn't matter whether they got the toys out or not. IMHO, they would want their sister's or brother's helping them if the shoe was on the other foot so they can help them. It cultivates charity if you are able to have them think in that perspective. The child takes all cues from parents. If the parent can make the child see him or herself as a helpful little angel he/she will love to help.

I'm very lucky. My children have watched me do the dishes from the time they were 1 1/2 on up. They don't do the dishes but they help rinse them and they know how they go in the drainer/cabinets. I never have once made them do dishes though, (mainly because I want them clean and not broken. My children do, however, clean up all their toys, putting them where they belong, how they belong. Lego's go where they are supposed to. Same for cars, rocking ponies, large toys, ride along tractors, small toys, kitchen sets etc. They all help each other whether they've gotten the toys out or not.

The 4 year old and 5 year old sweep the dining room and clean the table. I make sure its done correctly and if it is they get a sticker for that day. So many stickers for the week and they pick a Prize out of the Prize box. The 3 year old cleans off the chairs. Same rule applies to her. The 1 1/2 year old wants to help. She takes kitchen towels and wipes things off and we get all excited for her. Not because she actually did anything but because we want her to think she's doing great! If you can get that in their heads, that if they do something nice they make you happy and its fun then you've won a great battle.

I say set the bar a step above what the world says to set it, but don't set it too high so they can't actually reach it. Keep you kids reaching for something greater. When they do achieve it reward them. The thing with kids that I don't think many people understand is that they can accustom themselves to a great deal of chores without actually losing their childhood.

For example. I am traditional catholic. My children go to church every Sunday. They kneel when they are supposed to. They fold their hands during church when they are supposed to. They don't talk. They are being sculpted at a very young age to be mature. You can still have fun and be mature. When you go to the store they know not to ask for what's in the isle. We don't have money for it and continuously asking won't get it. That will just get you in trouble. Some may find this hard to believe but they have never thrown a temper tantrum in a store. Why? Because they know there won't be a happy ending for them.

My meaning for all this is that I don't think you are setting it too high. I need help around the house. There comes times, like today, when I have 5 kids, 1 of which is drinking a bottle every 3 hours. In between that is changing 2 kids diapers. After that is getting the 4 other kids to eat. Two out of the five are sick; throwing up and diarrhea. So I'm also wiping 2 kids butts constantly throughout the day and cleaning up vomit. I have to clean up toys so as to stop any germs. I still have rabbits, pigeons and chickens to feed and water. In between ALL this I have to constantly bring water for the said animals since it freezes within an hour. If my wife and I had not trained out kids from a very young age to look out for each other, to help with chores, to do what they are supposed to and what they are not supposed to there is absolutely no way I would be able to do any of this without going completely crazy. (I only go halfway crazy.)

Make sure your kids have fun with what you have them do. Have them like helping you. Let them see how happy they make you when they help and you can get them to do anything because they will WANT to do it. I don't think you are expecting too much. Form them now while they are easily form-able.

 

[MamaMandy]

Very well said mystang. I totally agree with you! Well trained children are a joy and not a burden. We can take our 8 kids to a store, restaurant or anywhere and know that they will act properly. I'm not saying they never have their moments, but its not often and they know there will be consequences. I don't think kids should have to work all day but they sure don't need to play all day either! Everyone has to do their part to keep our household running well. I'm like mystang, and have lots of little ones very close in age. I actually had 5 kids age 4 and under (we've got twins), and I've always noticed how much older my oldest acts than other kids his age. He kind of had to grow up quickly with so many younger siblings. He's always been my helper. He's eleven now, and is very responsible and mature for his age and actually enjoys helping out with the little ones. He'll even change diapers without being asked! He still gets plenty of play time. In fact, he's the only child up now and he's enjoying playing a video game with Daddy. Just remember that with extra responsibility should come some extra privileges. That along with lots of praise and you won't have a child that resents being relied upon. I believe they'll actually make a more responsible, unselfish adult, than the child who was never made to work. That's just my two cents, for what it's worth.

__________ Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:43 pm __________

 

[BlueLove16]

Im late to respond..had to cleaaaan then get kids to bed.

I dont think having a kid makes you a parent..because there are a lot of people out there who have kids, biological parents...who are cruel to them and dont love them. those arnt parents.


Mystang, your way opens up a new perspective and it does make sense. I tell her too, that i pick up her toys all the time and i didnt get the out, so she can help us too. I am expected to pick up after the pets, hubby, and kids, plus myself. I think if everyone pitched in more it would be a lot less stressful on all of us. But its good that they use teamwork to get things done, it goes sooo much faster that way. my oldest keeps saying i wish she was older so she could clean up and not ruin my games...lol

My oldest wants to help with dishes..I give her silverware and bowls and cups. i wash them already and then tell her to wash and rinse..but i know their clean because i already washed them lol.

Laundury takes a loooot longer than i have time for with kids helping, so its normally something i do really early when i wake up before kids go to bed.

Talking to my moms friend about this the other night, she says that she wishes she asked more of her kids when they were younger, then maybe they wouldnt be so "lazy" today and expect her to do everything for them.

 

[Asinaway]

I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to say all you parents are awesome. I really look up to you guys and the amazing job it sounds like you guys are doing. Especially those with multiple childern.

I have a three year old son, probably my only child since hubby and I have fertility issues. But man can her be a handful and sometimes I get a bit flusterd. But parenting is all about learning and adjusting to what makes things work. Parenting is a joy that I am so glad I was allowed.

I always wonderd if I was not expecting enough from my son, and seeing all the comments I have an abudence of things I want to try.

I have OCD and ADHD, which makes it very hard for me to clean because things have to be perfect but yet I forget to often or get distracted, my son has OCD and some behaviorl angry issues we are working on. We butt heads lol but seeing what works for you guys may start to work for us. I think at his age maybe giving him some chores would be helpful not only for my stress level but for him as well.

Thank you for starting this topic!

 

[Frecs]

I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to say all you parents are awesome. I really look up to you guys and the amazing job it sounds like you guys are doing. Especially those with multiple childern.

I have a three year old son, probably my only child since hubby and I have fertility issues. But man can her be a handful and sometimes I get a bit flusterd. But parenting is all about learning and adjusting to what makes things work. Parenting is a joy that I am so glad I was allowed.

I always wonderd if I was not expecting enough from my son, and seeing all the comments I have an abudence of things I want to try.

I have OCD and ADHD, which makes it very hard for me to clean because things have to be perfect but yet I forget to often or get distracted, my son has OCD and some behaviorl angry issues we are working on. We butt heads lol but seeing what works for you guys may start to work for us. I think at his age maybe giving him some chores would be helpful not only for my stress level but for him as well.

Thank you for starting this topic!

If I may be so presumptuous...I wanted to share what worked for the boys with ADD/ADHD (not to mention other issues such as anger)...routine. A very strict routine.

I mean, when I first started working with them, I thought the system that was set up was way strict. But, as I observed, it became very clear that the boys needed it! If I got something mixed up and got the routine out of order, they were quick to tell me so ..."No, Miss Tina, we do this first." But, they had to be told each step.

Basically, everything was done in the same order ALL THE TIME. So, for example...

1. wake up, get up, and make your bed
2. come line up for your meds
3. go get dressed
4. do your cottage duty
etc etc...

every activity was set to a sequence. Each step was announced "Okay, now I want you to do..." They had to hear it...even though they knew it... They sat in the same place on the van. They sat in the same place at the table. etc. routine. order. structure. It became their lifeline.

 

[Asinaway]

Thank you so much for the suggestion Frec actually this has helped me. I am at a loss of what to do sometimes, its hard to find people who understand without judging me as a person. Trust me I try and I try hard but there is room for improvment on my part.

I think I will try to write down a routine and get to where we follow it.

I started a blog to vent and to talk about things, find this helps. Could always use followers with opinions or comments.

Once agian thank you for this topic, Makes me realize i really do love this fourm and I am glad I joined. Not only do I get answers for my rabbits, but support from wonderful people.