How did I get lilac?

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Hello! Everyone was really helpful the first time I posted! Now I have a question about my lionhead doe.
I raised her from one of my own litters
She is the daughter of a black tort buck and a broken Siamese sable doe.

The only color I see is lilac! I am absolutely not an expert on that color and I am really confused! How could I get lilac from that combination? It’s slightly possible I think, but very unlikely. Newborn photo. I see that rosy hue that it says lilacs have.Her and her brothersher compared to my blue buckshe is older herephoto from yesterday. She is molting right now.momdad.

Please tell me what y’all think of her!

Her litter mates I identified from left to right as: broken sable point
Broken black tort
Blue or lilac tort I wasn’t sure

If I’m wrong about their colors please tell me! I have more pictures to help identify them! Thank you!

 

[kusanar314]

I'm not good with IDing colors from pictures, but if both parents are D/d and B/b then you could get a lilac

If you have a blue you KNOW they are both D/d to get the d/d kit, so you would just need the B/b to give the Chocolate / Lilac gene

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Thank you! I was just thinking it was quite unlikely as her dad’s (the black tort) parents were black mom and black tort dad. Her mom’s parents are broken sable point mom and BEW dad his mom was chocolate tort though so chocolate came from there but his dad was black. In my mind the chances of both parents carrying chocolate and dilute and then passing it all to the same kit are pretty slim. I don’t know though I’m new to genetics and it’s slightly overwhelming!

Has anyone had a lilac before? She would be my first. I’ve only seen a few pictures online and it’s hard to say.

Also do you think I identified the other kits right? Would you say the tort kit is blue or lilac?

She is due to have a litter in a few days and I want to identify them properly. I’ll probably post pictures of them when they’re born!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hello! Everyone was really helpful the first time I posted! Now I have a question about my lionhead doe.
I raised her from one of my own litters
She is the daughter of a black tort buck and a broken Siamese sable doe.

The only color I see is lilac! I am absolutely not an expert on that color and I am really confused! How could I get lilac from that combination? It’s slightly possible I think, but very unlikely. Newborn photo. I see that rosy hue that it says lilacs have.

Please tell me what y’all think of her!

Her litter mates I identified from left to right as: broken sable point
Broken black tort
Blue or lilac tort I wasn’t sure

If I’m wrong about their colors please tell me! I have more pictures to help identify them! Thank you!

Lilac can come from any combination, really (other than BEW x BEW or REW x REW). Lilac is dilute chocolate.; so, like @kusanar314 says, if each parent carries both chocolate <b> and dilute <d>, a lilac can pop out, and those are both completely recessive so they can hide for a long time.

I'm not sure I'd call that kit lilac, though, with those darker ears. Lilac is a self color, so you shouldn't see any shading. I'd be happy with lilac-based - maybe lilac sable <aabbc(chl)_ddE_> Wool sometimes baffles me, but in the original kit photo and the molting photo, it seems to me that it is not a pointed variety; the sable could explain the shading without needing a non-extension <ee>. Based on the lack of distinct points, the shading on the ears in the kit photo, and variations in color around the face and over the saddle in the molting photo, my first guess would be lilac sable <aabbc(chl)_ddE_>.


Lionhead varieties are being developed as we speak, and they can be a bit different in appearance from other breeds, even other wooled breeds. There are some good pictorial resources here:
https://www.blossomacresrabbitry.com/educational-materials/lionhead-color-id
https://lionheadrabbit.com/varieties/

Black tort is <aaB_C_D_ee>, but I think your buck may be a VM chocolate tort <aabbC_D_eevv>.
Siamese sable in lionheads is <aaB_c(chl)_D_E_>, a normal extension color. However, if this is the dam, honestly I don't know what she is, but I don't think she's siamese sable:

Are the eye rings black, or are they dark sepia? It can be tricky to judge with so little color. Also, it appears she has a little color on/around her ears; seems maybe sable-y but I can't tell what that color is. If you have more photos of her, I'd love to see them.

You say she's from broken sable point and BEW; the combination of broken <Enen> and BEW <vv> could explain the white/cream body and dark eye rings. Can you tell, is her body color creamy, or actually white? Those super-minimal markings suggest charlie to me (double broken <EnEn>), but since she had solid kits, I'd rule that out.

I suppose she could also be a broken sable point , which is a broken non-extension sable, or even a broken sable (which would be a broken siamese sable), both with or without vienna marks. You'd not expect a sable point to have such dark eye rings, and you'd expect to see color on the nose, but the vienna allele is good at eliminating color on the nose. And apparently broken-colored lionheads often lack a nose marking, anyway.

As far as the other kits, from what I can see, you may have #1 broken lilac or broken lilac sable, #2 lilac sable, #3 broken orange (I can't see the face for evidence of torting), and #4 maybe lilac tort (the points on that kit look very similar to those on the lilac sable #2). Either of the brokens (#1 and #3) could also be VM - you wouldn't necesssarily be able to tell on a broken. The fact that their ears are white makes me suspect VM, though, since even in lionheads, brokens usually have color on the ears.



As far as the lilac sable, watch for color changes and/or blotchiness. Sable is a temperature-sensitive allele, so the rabbit very often has shifting tones and uneven color.

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Thank you!! That would make sense if she was a lilac sable. I thought I saw shading once but then I wasn’t sure. I can’t find many pictures online to compare either. But you think she is definitely lilac base not blue? That’s very good to know that chocolate can hide for a long time looking back at the pedigree on both sides there is chocolates/ chocolate tort.

I completely forgot to mention both the sire and the dam are vm. That’s why she has so little color. Before I knew better I bred a BEW with a broken not knowing I would get vm brokens with so little color. So she isn’t a charlie.the two other kits are vm as well.

Dam kit picture little older herethis is from the other dayhere is the kit that looked broken lilac. I thought that he was broken lilac at first but now I see broken sable point. Here is the other one. I’m thinking broken black tort or chocolate tort. But as you said the lack of color on the nose makes it hard.

I don’t know if my buck is a chocolate tort. This is a picture of my chocolate tort doe. I think he looks black. His dam was black vm his sire was black tort.also I’m wondering if this is a Siamese sable? I have more pictures if needed. This would be my broken Siamese sable’s aunt.Thank you so much for all your help!
I really want to get the colors right!

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Here is another picture of the sire

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you!! That would make sense if she was a lilac sable. I thought I saw shading once but then I wasn’t sure. I can’t find many pictures online to compare either. But you think she is definitely lilac base not blue? That’s very good to know that chocolate can hide for a long time looking back at the pedigree on both sides there is chocolates/ chocolate tort.

The kit looks lilac-based (dilute chocolate) to me. As you noted, she has that pinkish tint, and seems much more chocolatey than a blue would typically be.

Dam kit picture
little older
this is from the other day

From these photos it would be hard for me to decide between tort and sable. Sable should have no tan colors - it blocks pheomelanin which is the source of tan/orange/red. Her kit picture looks like she's got tan around her eyes and on her right ear, and the tan seems to persist near her eye in the photos of when she is older. However, I have found that in practice, medium sepia can look quite orange-y. Here is a young American Sable buck in the middle of a molt, showing quite well the variations in tone you can expect in sables (the variety would correspond to siamese sable in Lionheads):

You can see how dark the face and area around the eye is, although I have found that can be quite variable. Combined with the dilutive effect of wool, in which the color granules are spread along the length of the wool fiber rather than concentrated in a normal-length guard hair, you can imagine that a siamese sable Lionhead might have a relatively light-colored body (though the shorter fur over the saddle should still be sable). In my experience, though, full extension <E_> sables never have the creamy body color and super pointed look of sable points <ee>.

Just for general purposes, here are images of a Sable doe, Dusky, as a young senior molting into her second adult coat (pics 1 and 2), and as a 3-year-old in winter, showing just how dark siamese sable can get (pic 3).


Dusky looked just like the buck pictured above when she was a junior. If I had not bred her myself and known that her black sire was <Cc(h)> I might have wanted to call her seal (double sable <c(chl)c(chl)>), but given her sire and her himi babies, I know she was actually sable carrying himi <c(chl)c(h)> rather than seal.

On your doe, whether she is broken sable or broken tort, you may already know it but that marbled eye most likely comes from the vienna.

here is the kit that looked broken lilac. I thought that he was broken lilac at first but now I see broken sable point.

If it's this rabbit,

I'd tend to agree, or maybe call it broken lilac sable. That eye marking is quite dark, but compare its spine marking color to the saddle color of the lilac sable right next to it:

Here is the other one. I’m thinking broken black tort or chocolate tort. But as you said the lack of color on the nose makes it hard.

I'd agree - the spine marking seems way too orange-y to be sable. Zooming in on the eye marking, I don't see any evidence of actual black , so I'm leaning toward chocolate tort. Given the variability of tort markings, I'd think either was possible.

I don’t know if my buck is a chocolate tort. This is a picture of my chocolate tort doe. I think he looks black. His dam was black vm his sire was black tort.

To figure out tort base colors, I usually rely on the nose color and ear lacing. In the first picture you posted, those look chocolate rather than black:

while the in the second photo you could convince me the ear lacing and eye circle is black, although the nose still seems a little less than black, even with the contrasting white VM:


There is a lot of variation in the expression of chocolate, from pale milk chocolate to dark chocolate so deep it looks nearly black, so you're in the best position to look at the rabbit in different lighting conditions and make that call.

also I’m wondering if this is a Siamese sable? I have more pictures if needed. This would be my broken Siamese sable’s aunt.

Yeah, I'd be happy with siamese sable for that one. Ignoring the pale shades in the wool, her saddle seems too dark to be sable point, and she definitely appears to be shaded.

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Thank you so much!
So you think she is definitely lilac sable? I can still find no pictures of lilac sable and would love to compare. It looks like you have more experience with sables and if that’s what you say she is that’s what I’ll call her!

I took me a long time to figure out the color of her dam. I thought tort but if she was tort and I bred her to a tort buck all of the kits would have <ee> on the E locus, correct? And lilac/lilac sable would be <E_>? Also Her dam is broken sable point. The coloring around her eyes and on her ears has changed so many times. Sometimes it looks orange-ish sometimes brown or gray-black.

I just wanted to be sure about that last doe being Siamese sable. Her fur changed a lot over the years and kept leaving me confused until I realized she sable.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you so much!
So you think she is definitely lilac sable? I can still find no pictures of lilac sable and would love to compare. It looks like you have more experience with sables and if that’s what you say she is that’s what I’ll call her!

I am happy to help; hopefully this will all end up being helpful! There is little I enjoy more than a good coat color discussion (I know, get a life...)

Lilac Sable:

This rabbit doesn't have discernibly darker ears in these photos, but does look shaded in the face area; photos from https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml ("Out of a Black Tort x Smoke Pearl and known to be c(chl)c, as there were two REW in the litter also. aabbc(chl)cddEe. Pictures permission of Rebekah Perkins.")

Below is a self lilac Lionhead from https://www.blossomacresrabbitry.com/educational-materials/lionhead-color-id

After looking at the photos above, I could possibly be swayed to go with self lilac rather than lilac sable for your kit - the kit pictured above, next to a blue, I believe, seems to have slightly darker ears, though the blotchiness in the molt photo of yours compared to the adult above inclines me toward sable again.

Lilac Point <aabbc(chl)_ddee>

from the same site https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml ("Pix permission of Clover Field Farm.")

Lilac Tort:

also from https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml ("pix generously provided with permission from Bradley Clapp of Eight Points Rabbitry").

I took me a long time to figure out the color of her dam. I thought tort but if she was tort and I bred her to a tort buck all of the kits would have <ee> on the E locus, correct? And lilac/lilac sable would be <E_>? Also Her dam is broken sable point. The coloring around her eyes and on her ears has changed so many times. Sometimes it looks orange-ish sometimes brown or gray-black.

Yes, if she was tort <aa?? ?? ?? ee> and you bred her to another tort, all of the kits should be both self <aa> and non-extension <ee>. And yes, lilac/lilac sable should be <E_>.

If the dam's color has changed over time, to me, that in itself argues for sable. It's a tricksy allele.

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

This is very helpful!! Since I got into genetics I’ve been talking about rabbit colors almost nonstop!
That lilac sable does look like my doe.
However my doe has no ruby cast in her eyes. She could be vc though and could that mess with the color? Or do not all lilac sables have ruby cast?
I feel like as a kit she looked like the photo of a self lilac but now I’m not so sure…here is a photo from yesterday. She is a little shy so her eyes are bugging out of her head! But I think she looks shaded.

I think the tort could have been lilac but I don’t have any adult pictures of him so I don’t know. He seemed a little bit darker than that lilac tort picture though.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

View attachment 45433here is a photo from yesterday. She is a little shy so her eyes are bugging out of her head! But I think she looks shaded.

One of my ND Bucks looks at me like that a lot lol

Which speaking of, he's a Siamese Smoke Pearl and looks similar in color & points

 

[Alaska Satin]

This is very helpful!! Since I got into genetics I’ve been talking about rabbit colors almost nonstop!
That lilac sable does look like my doe.
However my doe has no ruby cast in her eyes. She could be vc though and could that mess with the color? Or do not all lilac sables have ruby cast?
I feel like as a kit she looked like the photo of a self lilac but now I’m not so sure…here is a photo from yesterday. She is a little shy so her eyes are bugging out of her head! But I think she looks shaded.

I think the tort could have been lilac but I don’t have any adult pictures of him so I don’t know. He seemed a little bit darker than that lilac tort picture though.

The thing about wooled breeds, and Lionheads in particular, is that the appearance of color intensity and its varying distribution are really affected by the combination of wool, normal body fur and shorter fur on the face, ears and feet. The shorter the hair, the darker the same color will look, and Lionheads have length variation all over the place. At first glance, your bunny looks shaded, but I am not 100% convinced that is not due to the varying lengths of fur over her head and body.

The thing that really inclines me toward sable (or one of its dilute variations, which include lilac sable or smoke pearl aka blue sable) is the variation/patchiness of color across the saddle, where all of her fur seems to be of about the same length.

Vienna would explain the marbling in the eye. A ruby cast would be less likely due to vienna <v> than to either the chocolate allele <b> or sable <c(chl)>. Both of those can result in a ruby cast, but they do not always do so. So the fact that you don't see it in your doe doesn't argue either way, IMO.

As far as her being blue sable (aka smoke pearl) versus lilac sable, that can be a tough call, because blue can range from very pale lavender, like a Beveren, to deep almost-black blue, like a blue Satin. From the early photos of your bunny, my first thought would be lilac. In this photo, she definitely does not look like a blue - too much pink/chocolate across the back (assuming I've got the right rabbit):

 

[Two sisters rabbitry]

Thank you for all your help!
I’ll keep watching her fur to see if there are any changes after her molt.
But I think you might be right. I looked at her again earlier and I’m not so sure she is shaded. Like you said the wool and varying lengths of fur makes her seem shaded. But she might not be.
I don’t really know what I think she is right now. Definitely lilac or lilac sable but I can’t decide which! She is due to have kits this weekend with a broken black buck. I’m excited to see if she has any diluted kits!