hoping for sable agouti...(sallander question, edit)

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LPH_NY

LPH_NY

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Valentine's Day will be bunny love day here!

Here's my buck, Chowder, who is a Siamese Satin:
10857781_1524950301092450_3209966194583965021_n.jpg

So, Chowder is: aa Bb chl_ D_ ee (I know it's Bb because his mom was Chocolate/bb)

And Anise, the ST Steel Satin is: Aa B_ chd_ Dd Es_ (Front/left, she came from a broken chin and a blue self - who must be carrying steel)
10688457_1494608854126595_4148667483963818033_o.jpg


I suspect I'll get chinchillas, maybe a steel or two, and shaded chins? What I want more than anything, though is a Sable Agouti/Sable Chin (A_B_c(chl)_D_E_) How likely is that to happen? I found that color on a color chart located here: http://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-co ... trix.shtml and the example is on a Holland Lop, so I suspect it will look only slightly different on a satin. Has anyone here had a Satin rabbit in that color? I know it's unshowable.

****************************************

EDIT.. I'm adding more pics of Chowder to the bottom. Since a couple of you suggested he might be a Sallander (which I was surprised to read) I wanted to post more pics within the same thread... Just curious if the updated photos still point at him being Sallander. I know, I probably can't ever know for sure... but it's fun to speculate.
 
Chowder is the blackest sable point (aa Bb cchl_ D_ ee) I've ever seen and I actually think he is sallander = aa Bb cchd_ D_ ee

__________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:14 pm __________

I just visited a couple Satin breeder websites and the colour "Siamese Satin" is what other breeds call "sallander" :shrug:
 
Apparently, it's a pretty average presentation of "Siamese" for the Satin variety. His shading isn't excellent, but he's not a show bunny, anyway. He came from a Chocolate mom and a black tort dad that came from a Siamese and a broken black. Wouldn't he had to have had an agouti parent to be a sallander? <br /><br /> __________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:19 pm __________ <br /><br />
Dood":3b1bjzpe said:
I just visited a couple Satin breeder websites and the colour "Siamese Satin" is what other breeds call "sallander" :shrug:
Click to expand...

But I thought a sallander was a chinchilla with siamese shading?
 
Wouldn't he had to have had an agouti parent to be a sallander?
Click to expand...
No - they are self, chinchilla and non extension

__________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:20 pm __________

A sallander is a sable point with the chinchilla gene instead of the light shaded gene

Or a tort that is also a chinchilla
 
Dood":11xq5k4p said:
No

__________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:20 pm __________

A sallander is a sable point with the chinchilla gene instead of the light shaded gene

Or a tort that is also a chinchilla
Click to expand...


I don't think I fully understand. Is it actually possible for him to be a Sallander? Knowing his mom is chocolate self... Dad was a black tort, very standard-issue black tort. Could one of those rabbits have passed on that chinchilla gene without it showing up elsewhere? In Chowder's birth litter, his siblings were self black and black tort. I feel very confused. How far back would that gene have had to come? Will I learn something definitively about whether or not he IS a sallander depending on what he and Anise (the steel) produce? And if I cross him with his tort sister (I'm expecting only Siamese and Torts in black and chocolate) IF he is in fact a Sallander, could something else appear in that litter?

__________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:28 pm __________

BTW, I always did think his eye color was a bit off... maybe, Dood, you are right... I just want to know HOW I can find out for sure if he really is a Sallander? His eyes do have a grayish cast instead of the very clear dark brown that is preferred for the Siamese. <br /><br /> __________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:32 pm __________ <br /><br /> Also, he's the same rabbit as in my profile pic. Only at about the 6 month mark did his saddle get the shading I was waiting for. He looked very pointed up until that time.
 
Both his parents were full colour on their C- locus they both must carry recessives, one parent must have a dark shaded/chinchilla gene and the other could be dark shaded, light shaded, Himilayan or REW.

Since the doe is a silver tipped steel (agouti, chinchilla and steel) she won't be any help in determining if he is sallander or not
 
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Dood":3mg5texg said:
Both his parents were full colour on their C- locus they both must carry recessives, one parent must have a dark shaded/chinchilla gene and the other could be dark shaded, light shaded, Himilayan or REW.

Since the doe is a silver tipped steel (agouti, chinchilla and steel) she won't be any help in determining if he is sallander or not
Click to expand...

The more I consider it, the more I think you are correct. I got a good deal on his mom because she had a serious fault for a chocolate - gray eyes! I bet she's the carrier of that hidden chin gene! This is both exciting and frustrating. I wanted to use him to MAKE Sallanders in the future... was waiting to buy a nice chinchilla doe to pair him with, but I guess I still don't fully understand genetics. I kept thinking a Sallander was a visual agouti with both shading and non-extension. I thought the agouti counterpart was critical, but I see now that it is not. At some point I figured Sallanders were a bit in the future for my line, so I wanted to try to use the steel doe to make a sable agouti. If he is, indeed, a Sallander... does that mean I can't get a sable agouti? If he and the doe contribute chd, then I end up with a self chin that looks black, right? Ugh.

__________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:11 pm __________

This was his chocolate mother... look at her eyes:
10386886_1440433686210779_1988687661944751440_o.jpg


likely the one hiding that sneaky chin gene? <br /><br /> __________ Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:17 pm __________ <br /><br /> Which is more dominant, chd or chl? I guess what I'm asking, is if the rabbit has both, what does that look like?
 
I've had lots of Sallander in my lines and they all come from chinchilla. your little buck is really dark and I just might expect more sallanders or sable chins if bred to the tort doe. with the steel it would be hard to tell steel has a way in mucking everything up.

I bred a broken chin doe to a sallander buck and got himi and broken sallander. But I also bred a pure show NZ with my broken chin doe and got this:

color_changer_by_trickster_of_asgard-d6ly1vk.jpg


steeled sable agouti.

the only way for you to really find out is to breed them and see what you get. :)
 
Celice":3395yln1 said:
I've had lots of Sallander in my lines and they all come from chinchilla. your little buck is really dark and I just might expect more sallanders or sable chins if bred to the tort doe. with the steel it would be hard to tell steel has a way in mucking everything up.

I bred a broken chin doe to a sallander buck and got himi and broken sallander. But I also bred a pure show NZ with my broken chin doe and got this:

color_changer_by_trickster_of_asgard-d6ly1vk.jpg


steeled sable agouti.

the only way for you to really find out is to breed them and see what you get. :)
Click to expand...

I saw you had posted that pic in another thread... that is a gorgeous rabbit! I would REALLY love to see the same color without the white. That rabbit reminds me of a ragdoll cat I once knew.
 
I have his daughter. so hopefully I can get some more of that color. it wasn't really big but his personality made up for it, I never knew what color he was until he got his big bun coat
 
With those eyes I bet his mother is actually a chocolate self chin = aa bb cchd_ D_ Ee

Self chins look self and hide the chin gene and self shadeds look seal or sable. Since you say the doe carries self you should get 50% agouti based and 50% self based who will all be self chins since neither parent carries full colour but they could have shaded, himi or REW as their other recessive so you'd get seals, sables, himi or REW kits

Full colour is dominant over chin which is dominant over shaded which is dominant over himilayan which is dominant over REW

= C > cchd > cchl > ch > c
 
Celice":thnczvhe said:
I've had lots of Sallander in my lines and they all come from chinchilla. your little buck is really dark and I just might expect more sallanders or sable chins if bred to the tort doe. with the steel it would be hard to tell steel has a way in mucking everything up.

I bred a broken chin doe to a sallander buck and got himi and broken sallander. But I also bred a pure show NZ with my broken chin doe and got this:

color_changer_by_trickster_of_asgard-d6ly1vk.jpg


steeled sable agouti.

the only way for you to really find out is to breed them and see what you get. :)
Click to expand...

What a cutie! I happen to love the Sallander color/pattern. Do we have a Sallander thread...with pictures? I think we need one.
 

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