History behind name reversal of Argentes?

[dragonladyleanne]

I have recently started raising rabbits via an interest in medieval history. The original name of this breed (still called this everywhere but the USA, as far as I can tell) is "Argente' de Champagne" meaning "Silver (rabbit) of Champagne", Champagne being a PLACE name, not a color. When first recognized outside of France, it was called the French Silver, a logical translation (another would be the Silver [rabbit] of France), but every modern reference to the breed here in the USA now calls them "Champagnes d'Argent" which is neither correct French nor a translation of it. The "de" means "of" or "from", and so "Champagne d'Argent" means "Champagne from Silver". Since Champagne is a place name, it's equivalent to calling them "France of Silver" or "France from Silver". I am curious as to when America quit calling them "French Silvers" and mistakenly thought the reversed name was equivalent. French Silver, btw, would be "Argent Francaise" or "Argent de France" in the French language.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Don't know offhand...and while the Wiki words them "Argente Champagne" it doesn't explain why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argente_rabbit

This may have more info:

http://rabbitbreeders.us/champagne-d-argent-rabbits

 

[Southbound_SF]

Well I don't know about the history of it, but I do know French. An idea: "de" can also mean "made of", so "un anneau d'argent" is "a silver ring", "soupe de legumes" could be "vegetable soup". "A silver rabbit" could be "un lapin d'argent" and if you throw Champagne (the place name) in there as a descriptor I can see Champagne d'Argent making sense.

SB

 

[dragonladyleanne]

Thank you 2. I do know why they are called Argente' de Champagnes (that's supposed to be an accent ague over the e, not an apostrophe, don't know how to make this PC do that), here's the best article on THAT part which I have found http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/reguli/argente.htm As for the "made from" angle, that is interesting, but considering that the original name used the "of" meaning, I still find it odd. I almost think it may be down to something like when kids are in school, and last name is first with a comma, then someone unfamiliar with names accidently left out the comma. I may never know unless I luck across someone old enough to recall the breed's introduction to the US, or with access to old French AND American show records from the time. And it's not like it is of earth shattering importance, just one of those things that makes me go "hmmmmm".<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:12 pm __________<br /><br />Still in the vein of different ways to say things: you could say "I am from America" or you could say "I am American"; the ending has to change - you would NOT say "I am an America". Not sure how it would change in French, but since France becomes Francais to change the form, perhaps "Champagnaise d'Argent" would be accurate, but someone thought that was a mouthful? Sorry if I seem OCD, the rabbits are a recent interest, languages have been my "thing" since I was 11 and had a subscription to Quinto Lingo!

 

[DevonW]

They're called Champagne D'Argent because of the way French grammar works. Argent is being used as an adjective in the case of their name which everyone knows as the Silver of/from Champagne. So Silver = Adjective Champagne = Noun.

When it comes to correctly translating the Silver from/Of Champagne into French you have to take into consideration the rules for the different types of adjectives in French. The adjectives that are placed before the noun follow what we refer to as the "BAGS" rule Which is Beauty Age Goodness and Size. Since silver does not fit into one of those categories it is placed after the noun. Therefore you end up with Champagne D'Argent and not Argent De Champagne.

The only Argent breed that is grammatically incorrect in North America is the Creme D'Argent.

Hope this helps.

Also, the french word for France is France. The French word for french is Francais as in Je Parle Francais- I Speak French.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

They're called Champagne D'Argent because of the way French grammar works. Argent is being used as an adjective in the case of their name which everyone knows as the Silver of/from Champagne. So Silver = Adjective Champagne = Noun.

When it comes to correctly translating the Silver from/Of Champagne into French you have to take into consideration the rules for the different types of adjectives in French. The adjectives that are placed before the noun follow what we refer to as the "BAGS" rule Which is Beauty Age Goodness and Size. Since silver does not fit into one of those categories it is placed after the noun. Therefore you end up with Champagne D'Argent and not Argent De Champagne.

The only Argent breed that is grammatically incorrect in North America is the Creme D'Argent.

Hope this helps.

Also, the french word for France is France. The French word for french is Francais as in Je Parle Francais- I Speak French.

That is really, really awesome.

 

[DevonW]

They were called the French Silver but the name graduated over 400 years to to be more descriptive of where they came from the Champagne Province of France. They were recognized in France and England as Champagne D'Argent loooong before they came to North America.

 

[dragonladyleanne]

hrrgh, ok, read my initial posts and the link to the Australian breeder, please? They were NOT called Champagne d'Argents originally, they were and are called Argente' de Champagnes. In French, you could have called them Lapins Argente' de Champagne (yes, adjectives come after the noun in French, but Champagne is not the noun being modified, rabbit is implied: Silver Rabbit of Champagne). US sites are the ONLY ones who have reversed the order. As for the language differences, if you want "silver" to be used as an adjective, then the "de" is not needed (it's not technically incorrect, but it's very formal)- Champagne Argent MIGHT be correct (assuming the place name is masculine; rabbit [lapin] is feminine, thus Argente' in the original name), though I still think Champagnais Argent (masculine) or Champaignaise Argente' would be more correct. What I am trying to find out is WHEN they quit being called "French Silvers" in the US! I am attempting to document a history project, so records from early US rabbit shows would be ideal. And would probably shed light on why the name changed rather than just reverting to the original name. Sorry, but some of these replies seem to ignore that I posted the research I had already done on their origins and history, and that I do have a reasonable grasp of French (though I have been told my 30+ in the past French training is "quaint" by modern French chatters). What I do not have is the "gap" years, all the free downloads from pre-1920's I have make no mention of them, and the only "histories" of the breed are light synopses that appear to be almost cut and paste copies of each other, with the exception of the name being Argente' de Champagne if the article is out of UK or AU.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I have recently started raising rabbits via an interest in medieval history.

What a unique way to start!

What I am trying to find out is WHEN they quit being called "French Silvers" in the US!

Have you tried contacting ARBA or the National Breed Club?

 

[bucknercrestfarm]

Tomato tamoto :roll:

 

[dragonladyleanne]

I do hope the above post does not put anyone off replying, I don't mean to sound snarky. Perhaps I worded my initial question oddly - I am not asking for conjecture as to why the name changed (it DID CHANGE, from "[lapins]Argentes de Champagne" to "Champagnes [lapins]d'Argent") except as it relates to documentable evidence. For example: show records, letters from breeders dealing in the breed at its introduction to the US, or whenever it quit being called the French Silver, newspaper articles, etc. Or reliable anecdotal evidence, as in "my grandfather raised them in the 30's and told me this story . . ."<br /><br />__________ Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:42 pm __________<br /><br />Thanks, mamasheepdog, I had looked at their websites, did NOT think to email them *thumps head*. I did email the Australian breeder, but have no reply yet. And yes, I suppose it IS an odd way to get into rabbit breeding, but it's because several friends have recently taken up raising various animals to use for medieval feasts (directly or cheese, etc) and crafts, and as I was retiring from teaching art, were urging me to do the same. From 30 years ago, I'd had a friend who'd raised rabbits and I knew they were a little less labor intensive and a LOT less noisy than goats or chickens, plus no one else in the local SCA was raising them, so I launched into it. I only happened across the Argentes by accident when looking for my initial stock, the ad listed the breeds she had with "400 year old meat rabbit" by "Champagnes d'Argent". It was in researching the breed that I noticed the name reversal in the US as compared to foreign sites and got a bug up my backside over it, LOL.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

did NOT think to email them *thumps head*

We have a smiley for that... :slap:

and when it gets really bad... :wall:

After I posted I thought- "Uh-oh... such a simple suggestion, she's probably already done it." :lol: I'm glad for my sake that you didn't!

So, do you "do" Renaissance Faires? We have a great one here in CA, and used to go every year. We went in full period attire, and I even had chemises for my babies! So cute. My friend and her Hubs at the time had a magic show there.

 

[dragonladyleanne]

Up until now, I had only attended our local Spring and Fall Renfaires, as "color" or working the Pirate games booth (a subgroup called a household, raising money for various charities). I do hope to work up to being a vendor, of pottery, herbs and furs, now that I am retired, but it's going to definitely be a few years before I see any profit! I like rabbit meat, though, and they like my garden produce, and fertilize it well too! Plus I have oaks which used to make a walking hazard with all the acorns dropped, but they can be used to tan hides, and are ALSO edible. I am going for the mini-ecosystem thing here!

 

[skysthelimit]

It seems that Americans went out of there way to do a lot of things the opposite of Europeans.

I have a coworker that does Civil War Reenactments. I wish I had time for something like that.

 

[dragonladyleanne]

THAT is probably it, sky! I have to admit, Champagne d'Argent sounds somehow "sexier" than Argente' de Champagne.<br /><br />__________ Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:23 pm __________<br /><br />"Just like Blanc de Hotot means “white [rabbit] of Hotot,” Champagne d’Argent means “Silver [rabbit] of Champagne.” This is from that site which Kyle linked to http://rabbitbreeders.us/champagne-d-argent-rabbits and is why I got quarrelsome. As you can see in the other example (blanc de Hotot), the second half of the quotation is incorrect. Argent means silver, de (in this instance) means from and Champagne is the region. In French that would be either Champagnais [Lapin] Argent, or [Lapin] Argente' de Champagne. "Champagne d'Argent" means Champagne [rabbit] of Silver, and as far as I know, they were never called simply Champagne rabbits.

 

[skysthelimit]

Americans are also famous for abbreviating/rearranging foreign words and terms, our language is littered with poorly translated slang words or complete incorrect usage. I could go on a tirade about how bad the english language is, in particular how Americans use it. Saw this somewhere once--English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammer.

Then of course, some things just don't translate well.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

LOL, I liked the SCA, it was awesome...until there was issues within the local canton, and now we all do approximately NOTHING. Back when we gathered and did stuff, I was always learning cool things...how to make turkish buttons, how to tablet-weave, heck I even learned a thing or two about old weapons (turns out I've got a good sense of balance and direction when it comes to throwing axes!)...............did a few medieval dance demonstrations after a year or so of medieval dance classes...and then poof, nothing.

Sadface.

I've never cued in to rabbits having a place in SCA ventures...just realized they might. Old recipes for rabbit might be fun to try....................if I can ever get out to an event again, that is.

 

[dragonladyleanne]

English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammer.
quote]

I love it! I mostly taught art the last 19 years, but I was also certified in English and Reading, so I feel you are quite correct about its usage. Plus, my husband IS English - he'll get a kick out of this! His favorite saying is (from a comedian whose name I can't recall right now), "Americans and English are two cultures separated by a common language".

Once, when he was helping out with an elementary art class, a child said to him, "You talk funny, where are you from"? Upon hearing the answer, the kid asked, "So, you speak Spanish then"?!<br /><br />__________ Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:24 pm __________<br /><br />Kyle, I know what you mean about "issues" in the SCA. Our local had a real brouhaha when its founder went to jail(!yes, jail!); we are just now recovering our reputation, even though it was nearly 4 years ago, and half of our current members weren't even around back then.

Lots of medieval coney recipes, some you can find online. Plus I found this neat link a few days ago, I am designing a logo loosely based on several of its illustrations: http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/gallery ... eld/about/

 

[skysthelimit]

I like the one with the rabbits going out of the hole.

 

[Southbound_SF]

"Just like Blanc de Hotot means “white [rabbit] of Hotot,” Champagne d’Argent means “Silver [rabbit] of Champagne.”


Uh, yeah, that was not written by someone who had really thought it through. It's not even a parallel structure! Ugh.
Sorry I couldn't be more help earlier, OP. Definitely didn't realize the depth of your current understanding/research! Good luck, and let us know what you figure out.

SB