Hind tooth malocclusion in Holland Lop

[dangerbunny]

I had something strange happen. I bought a rabbit from a breeder in another state, a four month old Holland Lop doe. She was delivered from the show and the transporter made a comment on how scrawny she was, much smaller than I would think for her age. She had a irritated eye on one side but seemed okay until yesterday morning she didn't clean up her food, by evening she was acting lethargic and I started dosing her with Simethicone and kept her hydrated, she seemed like she was turning around but died last night from the GI Stasis. I did a post mortem and everything seemed normal except for the bloating and her teeth were weird, like the bottoms were long and the top molars were not there and was non existent on the side with irritated eye. I know rabbits are sensitive and while I am sad the doe passed, I'm wondering if her tooth issues could be genetic? Possibly her tooth issues is why she was smaller than she should have been?
I can post pictures if needed.

Edited the title to make it easier to find.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh, wow, sorry that happened.

I would say that the missing teeth were a birth defect- whether one that is "hereditary" or not, the only way to know would be for the breeder to repeat the breeding and also watch for it in any related lines in the herd. My gut feeling is that it would be a more common thing in rabbits that don't have a "natural" head shape.

The involvement of the eye on that side may be due to the bottom tooth puncturing the gums and causing infection or perhaps the molar on that side didn't erupt and it itself is the cause of infection.

The lack of good condition is to be expected because it would be painful for the rabbit to eat.

Pictures would be very appreciated- not only so we can give you input on this particular rabbit, but as a reference for others that may encounter a similar case in the future.

I would also send the pictures to the breeder so they are aware that there might be a problem in their herd. I would hope that they will do the right thing and either replace the rabbit with one that checks out as healthy refund your money or if you don't want to risk getting a "replacement" in case it is a heritable condition.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

I had a rabbit that had a blocked lacrimal duct. Her face was often swollen, sh he had a chipped incisor on that side, a well. The vet's thought was that whatever chipped the incisor caused an infection/abces that blocked the duct.

 

[dangerbunny]

Thanks Mamasheepdog, I'm very sad, I really liked her and was excited to add her to the herd.

Well, the breeder hasn't responded to me since I paid her for the rabbit at the end of January, I finally messaged her on Monday after I picked her up to let her know she made it here and then again on Friday to let her know she had passed, and haven't heard anything back.

The teeth weren't totally missing, one side was normal and the other had long lower teeth and a gouged out upper. Very weird in a four month old rabbit but explains why she was so thin.

Normal top view

Top shot

Bad side

You can see how long the lower molars are in this picture

This shows how big the area was

 

[Miss M]

Oh, poor bunny! How painful that looks!

 

[Dood]

Poor poor bunny

The molars continue to grow just like the front teeth so if they don't line up properly and wear each other down you get abrasions on the gum tissue like your little one.

Hind tooth malocclusion is not something most people look for, or even know about.

I don't offer refunds once the rabbit leaves my property but in this case I would give one as it obviously happened in my barn and wasnt neglect on your part and because if I had found the problem I would never have sold the bunny (although I wouldn't sell a scrawny rabbit either ) and would have culled it and taken a loss.

Hopefully the breeder takes responsibility and replaces the rabbit or refunds your money.

 

[dangerbunny]

Thanks Dood for the correct term.

I still haven't heard back from the breeder, It's very disappointing she hasn't responded to me. One of the reasons I purchased from this breeder is I admired her rabbits and appreciated all the diagrams and videos she had available for educating new breeders and I wanted to support that.

 

[Miss M]

I had never heard of hind tooth malocclusion. Now I know another thing to look for.

 

[dangerbunny]

The breeder finally got back to me today, after a week. Said she was sorry it happened but felt the doe was healthy when she left there and the best she could do was offer me 50% off another rabbit from her. I don't know if I want to get another rabbit from her, you know? I already put $75. plus transport into this doe and it was pretty major tooth issue and while I can see how it might have been missed, she was thin (just over 2lb at over 4 months and both parents are close to 4 lbs) and had a runny eye on the side with the problem, I've only been into Hollands for two years and I wouldn't have sold her in the condition she was in.

 

[Dood]

Said she was sorry it happened but felt the doe was healthy when she left there

Her attitude really sucks

There is no way the bottom molars could grow that long in 7 days or even 20 days IMHO - did you send her the pictures? Or maybe direct her to his forum topic?

Personally I would not buy from this breeder again :angry:

I don't condone publicly black listing people but I hope anyone in the market for a Holland Lop could privately message you to get info on the breeder and avoid going through what you did :shrug:

 

[Marinea]

I totally agree with Dood. The breeder never should have sold that bun. Since they did, they should replace it. That is obviously, by any standard, a condition that existed prior to the sale.

Sorry you are going through this, and I hope she changes her mind.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh, wow, no wonder that poor bunny was underweight.

It might be just the angle of the picture, or due to the swelling of the gums on that side, but it looks like there is a curve in the roof of the mouth. :? It is especially noticeable in the second from the last picture.

I'm sorry she wont replace the rabbit outright. I would not buy from her again or recommend her to others.

Hopefully you can get a referral for a trustworthy breeder from someone. :clover:

 

[dangerbunny]

Thanks everyone, it's quite upsetting. I did send her the pictures. The breeder is in Virginia and I am in Michigan, I have bought rabbits long distance before and never had an issue.

I paid for the rabbit on January 23rd, she was picked up by the transporter on February 6th or the 7th at the show. I picked the doe up from the transporter at 3pm on February 9th and the doe went downhill and passed away on February 13th.

Mamasheepdog- that's a good observation, the top of her mouth was all wonky and I do think it was curved in addition to the big wound on the top.

-- Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:18 am --

Here is the last email I sent her and the reply she gave. I'm floored, I have never had a rabbit person treat me like this.

Hi Laura,
I did read your sales policy when I purchased Blanket and in general I agree with it, as a breeder you are not in control of how someone cares for a rabbit they have purchased. However I feel this is a special circumstance, as I am several states away I was relying on you to accurately represent and evaluate the rabbit. If I were buying in person I could perform a through health check myself, Even if I had missed the malocclusion I'm not confident I would have purchased her if I had seen her in person as she wasn't in good flesh and had a weepy eye. The transporter was pleased to drop her off to me as the rabbit was not in good condition. Your sales policy states no reimbursement is given for injury, illness, or death that occurs in the buyer's care. But this rabbit's dental condition and poor health was preexisting and not a result of my care. This rabbit was not in good health upon arrival, it is your responsibility as a breeder to make this situation right.

I have discussed this issue with several experienced breeders and on a rabbit forum and a full refund is normal. I expect you to do the right thing in this situation.
Sincerely, Ruth

Ruth,
My sales policy is my sales policy. If you only agreed with it "in general", you should not have purchased from me. She did not leave my barn with a weepy eye or poor condition which both can occur due to stress and traveling. If she had died and you found a tumor or it was from a dormant illness, those are things I could not have known about even with a thorough health and dq evaluation, just like the molars. She left my barn in good conscience. Buying through pictures means it is your responsibility to make sure you are willing to take a risk and not spend more than you are willing to lose. I have told you my answer to the situation and I am not going to allow you to bully me into submission because you feel differently or failed to understand my policy. By contacting me, you agreed to my sales policy in it’s entirety which clearly states I do not offer replacements, refunds, or health guarantees after the rabbit leaves me.

This is the last I will reply to harassing emails regarding this rabbit.
L---
***Edited by MamaSheepdog to remove name and email address***
Holland Lops & Netherland Dwarfs in South Central, VA

 

[Dood]

Very disappointing

Has she offered a hypothesis on how the rabbits bottom molars grew 1/4 inch (or more) and ground a hole into the roof of the rabbits mouth in less than a week?

It is a shame she is standing by her policy of frauding people she ships rabbits to who can only trust her to be an honest and reputable breeder. If she didn't check for hind tooth problrms then just admit she made a mistake (as there really is no other way this damage could have happened) and replace the rabbit.

Apparently others have accused her of "only breeding for profit" and after reading about your experience I can only agree with this statement.

I guess she thinks you should have bought one of her high quality $200 rabbits as her culls apparently sell for $75 !

She also states she has "given away more high quality stock than [she] could ever have sold" yet is unwilling to replace your rabbit :shrug:

Sounds like she enjoys tooting her own horn but doesn't put her money where her mouth is

 

[JenerationX]

Her response leads me to believe she may purposely send sub par stock off to people that aren't available to check rabbits in person. Oh, you're buying based on pictures and have no recourse once it's left? Let me just send this train wreck and then point out my policy. I'm sorry you experienced that. I'd be posting it all over the internet if someone did that to me.