help with some color genetics? LH and thrianta/LH

[ohiogoatgirl]

have a vienna lionhead doe (tort color i think, brown-red with the white dutch-like markings) and a red-orange buck who is half lionhead and half thrianta (he is thrianta red).

the vienna i dont have any info on. she had a litter with a steel dutch buck. the babies had dutch-like markings. really good ones actually.they died at less then 2wks old (human and bun error) so not 100% on colors but looked like: several black, two chesnut/agouti or gold tipped (might have been black underneath, like steel ticking is), two chocolates. the dutch buck carried black, steel, chocolate.

the cross buck i only know that the mom was REW lionhead and the dad was thrianta.

i was wondering what the odds are of if i bred them together getting more of his red color?
odds of getting one that is like a thrianta red dutch marked? or would that need breeding with the red buck and bred to dutch to get the better markings?

i asked somewhere else and got these answers:
"probably get some high rufus torts, orange and regular torts. Along with Vienna marks"

"rufus factor (degree of red) is multigenic and seems to be additive. Short version -- expect the 'redness' to be halfway between the two parents -- with a smaller chance (think bell curve) of hitting the extremes (really red / really tan).
vienna marks are co-dominant -- (VV = blue eyed white, Vv = vienna marked or vienna carrier, vv = no marks) -> expect half the kits to have white marks.
tort x orange/red -> tort is aaee, orange/red is A-ee. If the red carries an a gene, then you will get half torts and half red/orange. If it carries otter, half orange-red and half tort-otter. If AA, then all orange. Other recessive color genes would have to be carried by both parents to show up -- e.g., dilute - blue tort & fawn, chocolate - chocolate tort & cream, rew, point, shaded etc."

"the doe is a chocolate carrier. if the buck is as well, watch for the chocolate-based colors. Chocolate torts are my favorite! chocolate genes tend to 'warm' the red tones (not brighter or darker, exactly, but 'warmer' just as the chocolate is 'warmer' than black)"

i dont have an exact idea of what i "want" from the pairing. just love his red color and curious what they will throw. although the thought has crossed my mind of makin a pretty red, fluffier, meat rabbit :mrgreen: :roll: hahaha

have some pics but they dont like me and wont post... will have to try em with photobucket in a bit /:

 

[Dood]

You should be able to get some pretty orange fawns and maybe some lionhead oranges with this breeding, who carry the dutch gene, the wideband and some rufus factors.

I dont believe your tort is a vienna marked, but is a dutch. The dutch genes are recessive so when bred to your steel dutch buck you should have gotten solids and some vienna marked, the fact you got all nicely marked dutch makes me believe she is in fact dutch.

Genetically tort is a black with two non-extension genes which is good since a Thriantra is a chestnut with two non-extension. What you will be missing in the first generation is the dutch markings, the Thriantra's two wideband genes and the rufus factors. However all the kits will secretly carry these so if you breed a brother to a sister you should start getting orange dutch and then you start keeping the ones with the most red.

Dutch single mane Lionhead Tort
= aa Bb C_ D_ ee W_ dudu Mm

Thriantra
= A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww DuDu mm

First generation
= Aa (B_ or bb) C_ D_ ee Ww Dudu (Mm or mm)

Second generation dutch lionhead thriantra
= A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww dudu Mm

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

You should be able to get some pretty orange fawns and maybe some lionhead oranges with this breeding, who carry the dutch gene, the wideband and some rufus factors.

I dont believe your tort is a vienna marked, but is a dutch. The dutch genes are recessive so when bred to your steel dutch buck you should have gotten solids and some vienna marked, the fact you got all nicely marked dutch makes me believe she is in fact dutch.

Genetically tort is a black with two non-extension genes which is good since a Thriantra is a chestnut with two non-extension. What you will be missing in the first generation is the dutch markings, the Thriantra's two wideband genes and the rufus factors. However all the kits will secretly carry these so if you breed a brother to a sister you should start getting orange dutch and then you start keeping the ones with the most red.

Dutch single mane Lionhead Tort
= aa Bb C_ D_ ee W_ dudu Mm

Thriantra
= A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww DuDu mm

First generation
= Aa (B_ or bb) C_ D_ ee Ww Dudu (Mm or mm)

Second generation dutch lionhead thriantra
= A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww dudu Mm

ahhhhh cool.

nuts... i need more space again.. :roll:<br /><br />__________ Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:05 am __________<br /><br />she finally had her litter. she always has em at least day 32 *rolls eyes* but she always has 8 so hard to complain.
she was bred to the lionhead/thrianta buck looks like 6 torts (like mom) and 2... not torts ;D so crossing my fingers they are reds just to know how they turn out. I had to sell the buck so now she and litter are my only nonmeat rabbits! woot! down to just them! though if these two turn out as awesome reds with nice manes i'm sure I will want to keep them... hahaha!

 

[Dood]

Interesting.

So the triantra buck must have had a self gene. I was under the impression they were all agouti based but I guess with a rare breed you keep whatever pops out. The Thriantra buck likely had a tort ancestor that wasn't culled from the gene pool but used as breeding stock

Did you get any with dutch markings? Or white areas?

Hopefully the two are Thriantra looking and one of each sex . If not you can still use the torts to cross with but don't loose the agouti gene.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

*sigh* well its really hot today... I pulled fur out of the nest this morning but to no avail because mom is crazy and pulled a heaping nestbox full after that too... was doing stuff and just went out to check again and only 3 made it. rest are perfectly fine, seem to have died from the heat.... i'm really hoping they aren't all torts..... on the other hand though her babies were usually small so if these three live hopefully they will be nice and red and fat.

 

[Jack]

DUTCH MARK IS NOT Du
you get 'dutch like markings' out of HALF Vienna
its weird, but I REALLY doubt you have a dutch that you can produce out a Thrianta line
That being said, I've had some weird stuff out a Thriana, suck as, red 'steel' like ticking

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

DUTCH MARK IS NOT Du
you get 'dutch like markings' out of HALF Vienna
its weird, but I REALLY doubt you have a dutch that you can produce out a Thrianta line
That being said, I've had some weird stuff out a Thriana, suck as, red 'steel' like ticking

oh I know that. I was thinking the possibility of working the red in and crossing back to the dutch and trying for red dutch eventually. but not something I have the space or time for.


update on the current babies though, looks like the 3 survivors are 2 torts and 1 red. I was visiting my mother and then come home this evening and the darn doe pulled MORE FUR AGAIN! so I pulled the babies into a nest and i'll be taking them out to nurse. its just TOO hot and humid for them. makes me wonder if I ought to hold out on breeding back my cali doe even longer.

 

[Jack]

Ok, but here's my question is it Dutch
or is it Vienna MARKED

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

here are pics finally the three chubby survivors of the litter of 8.

couple day old:



today (9 days old):

(same bowl)





I cant be 100% sure on mom because unknown background but the babies should be 3/4 lionhead 1/4 thrianta. if the biggest one is a doe i'm going to be SUPER SUPER tempted to keep her and breed her to a friends thrianta buck <3

 

[Jack]

lovely color on them I do belive that at least 2 (one quite darkly) but probably all 3 will be torted