Help me identify these colors, please!

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I have two does, one is the mother of the oter, and I know that they have the himalayan markings, but what are these colors called?

I know they are meat mutts, but I want to get a handle on what genetics they may throw in the future. I just bred the older die with a Flemish Giant light grey buck.
 

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I have two does, one is the mother of the oter, and I know that they have the himalayan markings, but what are these colors called?

I know they are meat mutts, but I want to get a handle on what genetics they may throw in the future. I just bred the older die with a Flemish Giant light grey buck.
I think you found the answer on another thread, but the rabbits in the pictures certainly look like sables to me. :)

Both sable and himalayan look pointed or shaded. Both genes suppress color expression on various body parts, with the himalayan suppressing more than the sable. Both have color on the extremities, but himalayans have little to no color on the body, while sables have lighter body color; himalayans have red eyes, while sables have dark eyes with a red glow to them.) You have pretty good examples of sables; here's a genetic himalayan (also called californian):

Callie4-14-16.jpg
Note that she has what's called "smut" on her dewlap and eyebrows. It's not supposed to be there, but the himalayan gene is quite temperature sensitive, with the darkening happening on the extremities (which are colder), so after a very cold winter my californian Satins often have "extra" color.

Sable is at the same genetic locus (the C locus) as both himalayan, which is recessive to sable, and chinchilla, which is partially dominant to sable. So if your doe is a sable, bred to a light gray (which is genetically a chinchilla) buck, you will probably get sable chinchilla, but depending on what is at the other spot on the C locus in both doe and buck, you could also get chinchilla, sable or himalayan as well.

I see that one of the bunnies in the photos looks like a black, which suggests that its mother and father both carry the gene for self. This means that if the FG caries self, you could also get either blacks or self chinchillas (which look black).
 
I think you found the answer on another thread, but the rabbits in the pictures certainly look like sables to me. :)

Both sable and himalayan look pointed or shaded. Both genes suppress color expression on various body parts, with the himalayan suppressing more than the sable. Both have color on the extremities, but himalayans have little to no color on the body, while sables have lighter body color; himalayans have red eyes, while sables have dark eyes with a red glow to them.) You have pretty good examples of sables; here's a genetic himalayan (also called californian):

View attachment 33176
Note that she has what's called "smut" on her dewlap and eyebrows. It's not supposed to be there, but the himalayan gene is quite temperature sensitive, with the darkening happening on the extremities (which are colder), so after a very cold winter my californian Satins often have "extra" color.

Sable is at the same genetic locus (the C locus) as both himalayan, which is recessive to sable, and chinchilla, which is partially dominant to sable. So if your doe is a sable, bred to a light gray (which is genetically a chinchilla) buck, you will probably get sable chinchilla, but depending on what is at the other spot on the C locus in both doe and buck, you could also get chinchilla, sable or himalayan as well.

I see that one of the bunnies in the photos looks like a black, which suggests that its mother and father both carry the gene for self. This means that if the FG caries self, you could also get either blacks or self chinchillas (which look black).
Thanks for your reply!
We actually got 2 does from a colony and their collective offspring. One doe is the dable and thr other is californian (himalayan). The kits were mostly black. I thonk the buck that sired both litters was a black NZ, but not sure. There was the small sable doe, a couple white that I assume were californian, and the blacks. Some blacks have white toes, one a white nose, and one has a white front paw. Not sure if any carry the Vienna gene, but I am tempted to keep the buck with white toes or white nose and breed back and see.

The sable doe has been bred to my light grey Flemish giant for meat mutts, so we shall see what happens there. The Californian doe is bred to my black NZ, which may be a steel with gold tips. We should have some interesting kits in a few weeks. I can't wait!

Our first litters will be from minirex does that were supposedly bucks. One is a black otter, who jumped in with a rew Flemish giant young buck, and the other is a chestnut looking girl who jumped I n with the steel/black NZ buck(pictured mounting the Cali mix doe).signal-2022-12-05-14-39-07-682.jpg20221123_151149.jpg20221123_151146.jpg
 
Thanks for your reply!
We actually got 2 does from a colony and their collective offspring. One doe is the dable and thr other is californian (himalayan). The kits were mostly black. I thonk the buck that sired both litters was a black NZ, but not sure. There was the small sable doe, a couple white that I assume were californian, and the blacks. Some blacks have white toes, one a white nose, and one has a white front paw. Not sure if any carry the Vienna gene, but I am tempted to keep the buck with white toes or white nose and breed back and see.

The sable doe has been bred to my light grey Flemish giant for meat mutts, so we shall see what happens there. The Californian doe is bred to my black NZ, which may be a steel with gold tips. We should have some interesting kits in a few weeks. I can't wait!

Our first litters will be from minirex does that were supposedly bucks. One is a black otter, who jumped in with a rew Flemish giant young buck, and the other is a chestnut looking girl who jumped I n with the steel/black NZ buck(pictured mounting the Cali mix doe).View attachment 33177View attachment 33178View attachment 33179
I'd agree that your NZ buck is a gold-tipped steel. Bred to a cal he'll probably give you mostly steels and chestnuts but you never know when they're dominant colors that can hide a ton of recessives! By the way, a double dose of steel (AKA "super steel") can make a rabbit look like a solid black. With steel in the mix (and also chinchilla + self), it can be hard to say when a black is actually a black just by looking!
But those aren't Mini Rex does. They may be MR mixes, but Mini Rex have distinctive plush coats due to a recessive gene. I didn't have any otter MR, but here's a black, and a chestnut (which is called castor in rex and mini rex):
BlkComet.jpgCandyRt.jpg
It would be great to see photos of the kits eventually! :)
 
I'd agree that your NZ buck is a gold-tipped steel. Bred to a cal he'll probably give you mostly steels and chestnuts but you never know when they're dominant colors that can hide a ton of recessives! By the way, a double dose of steel (AKA "super steel") can make a rabbit look like a solid black. With steel in the mix (and also chinchilla + self), it can be hard to say when a black is actually a black just by looking!
But those aren't Mini Rex does. They may be MR mixes, but Mini Rex have distinctive plush coats due to a recessive gene. I didn't have any otter MR, but here's a black, and a chestnut (which is called castor in rex and mini rex):
View attachment 33180View attachment 33181
It would be great to see photos of the kits eventually! :)
 
These does! They both had litters in the same nest an hour or so apart. We have 18 kits. 7 are pink, so I am thinkingnprobably white from the himi x gild tipped steel combination, but could they be somw sort of light grey from the light grey Flemish Giant buck x siamese sable doe pairing?
We also have 11 dark babies, but some kook more black than others. I will try to get better pics of more, but this is what I got quickly today.
 

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These does! They both had litters in the same nest an hour or so apart. We have 18 kits. 7 are pink, so I am thinkingnprobably white from the himi x gild tipped steel combination, but could they be somw sort of light grey from the light grey Flemish Giant buck x siamese sable doe pairing?
We also have 11 dark babies, but some kook more black than others. I will try to get better pics of more, but this is what I got quickly today.
The pink kits are very likely himalayan, which comes from a heat-sensitive gene. Himis start out completely white (pink, actually) then develop color on their extremities as they emerge from the warmth of the nest. Though it is possible that they are ruby eyed white (REW), if both parents carry the REW gene.

The dark ones could be a number of different colors. The ones with light inner ears and pale bellies may be chestnut or chinchilla (which is known as light gray in Flemish Giants), with a slight possibility that they're otters if both parents carry the tan gene <at>. The ones that are solid colored with no light markings may be black, blue, sable or steel, or self chinchilla which looks like a black, among others. Blues start out looking grayish black; sables start out looking like pale blues. You have quite a mix of colors in the parents so it'll be exciting to see what develops! Real bummer that the does had them all in the same nest!
 
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What's with the white on the ears of the Himi?
Himi markings can vary widely, both because of the temperature-sensitive nature of the markings and due to genetic influences, including modifiers for color density, and presence of the gene for broken color.

If the doe was in an area that was especially warm when the fur was growing in, that could explain it. She has a pretty small nose marking as well. But the real tip-off to me is that she seems to have no color at all on her left front foot. I can't see the other feet, but if they are also white, that would suggest that she's a broken himi. Broken color often leaves color on the ears and nose but it almost always eliminates color on the feet.

If she's a broken, she should have at least one or two broken-colored kits; although that's not a sure thing, it's very likely. They may be the himi kits, so you'd have to wait to see when the color develops (or doesn't).

@RabbitsOfTheCreek, I think the subject of breeding brokens with himis came up a few weeks ago in regard to your Netherland Dwarfs - this doe might be an example of what I was talking about. :)
 
Himi markings can vary widely, both because of the temperature-sensitive nature of the markings and due to genetic influences, including modifiers for color density, and presence of the gene for broken color.

If the doe was in an area that was especially warm when the fur was growing in, that could explain it. She has a pretty small nose marking as well. But the real tip-off to me is that she seems to have no color at all on her left front foot. I can't see the other feet, but if they are also white, that would suggest that she's a broken himi. Broken color often leaves color on the ears and nose but it almost always eliminates color on the feet.

If she's a broken, she should have at least one or two broken-colored kits; although that's not a sure thing, it's very likely. They may be the himi kits, so you'd have to wait to see when the color develops (or doesn't).

@RabbitsOfTheCreek, I think the subject of breeding brokens with himis came up a few weeks ago in regard to your Netherland Dwarfs - this doe might be an example of what I was talking about. :)
Interesting. This himi was born January of last year. I am not sure of the weather when she emerged, but we love in Maryland, so it varies greatly. I can try and get a photo of her feet also. I did not see any broken kits in her last litter, though.
 
Here is a better pic of her ears.
That doesn't really look like a broken pattern to me. It looks like poor point color, either from genetics, from damage (I've seen that in rabbits whose ears were damaged by frost or mites), from hot conditions when the fur was growing in, or some combination of the above. The fact that her color looks more sepia than blackish, and the small nose marking, would incline me to the last explanation.
I'd still be interested in seeing her feet and tail (especially the underside of her tail).
 
New baby pic! Moms are a little protective, so I only pulled put a few. They still have 16 in there between them:
7 dark grey with light inner ears, maybe chestnuts?
6 white himis including one runt
3 darker with dark inner ears, not sure what color to think of thrm, maybe steel or black?
 

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New baby pic! Moms are a little protective, so I only pulled put a few. They still have 16 in there between them:
7 dark grey with light inner ears, maybe chestnuts?
6 white himis including one runt
3 darker with dark inner ears, not sure what color to think of thrm, maybe steel or black?
I think the big babies are eating twice from two moms and the runts are getting edged out a bit. My FG doe is due today and if she does not have a huge litter I may put the runts with her for a few days to help them bulk up a bit. Is that a bad idea?
 

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New baby pic! Moms are a little protective, so I only pulled put a few. They still have 16 in there between them:
7 dark grey with light inner ears, maybe chestnuts?
6 white himis including one runt
3 darker with dark inner ears, not sure what color to think of thrm, maybe steel or black?
Looks like two REWs/BEWs, a steel, and a chinchilla
 
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