Help Bloat??

[pcreel]

I'm having a big issue
Not sure if my bunnies have bloat or mucoid enteritis

I have lost 10
1 adult Holland lop
1 young 15 week Flemish
5 mini Rex babies under 8 weeks old
And 3 mini lop under 8 weeks old

The only thing I did different was change their food
I can feel their spine also
Some of my rabbits are eating drinking fine no swollen bellies
Others are leAving the food do I give them nice Timothy hay which they are eating
One day I fine them sad I touch the belly and notice it swollen
I gave them gas drops but did not help
Next day bunny expired
I autopsied one
The stomach was full of water and a clear jelly
The intestines were huge dark gassy watery old feed and swollen
and some intestine were small but had thick paste stool which had a strong odor
I was looking for an impaction or hair something
I also noticed poop brackets strings of poo on the wire which I never seen before the food change

 

[Zass]

I'm leaning towards food in this case.
True bloat is unlikely to occur to multiple rabbits at once, since it seems to be more of a symptom of GI issues that have spiraled out of control than it is a disease in it's own right.

It's not uncommon to lose kits under 8 weeks after introducing new foods, but losing adults or anybun over 12 weeks is rather unusual.
From my experience, any mold or fungal toxins can cause mucoid enteritis symptoms in kits, along with some very common bacteria, like e coli. Severely contaminated feed could kill adults, and it's has been known to happen on occasion. Gi issues caused by contaminated feed could lead to true bloat.

Out of curiosity, what were you feeding previously, what are you feeding now, and were there any other new foods introduced at the same time?

Here is what I wrote in regards to your other post. I'd like to stress that both bloat and mucoid enteritis are symptoms. There are numerous potential causes for both conditions, and they overlap somewhat. What you are looking for is anything that could cause gastrointestinal distress. Contaminated feed or coccidosis being the two most common suspects.

 

[Miss M]

Contaminated feed should smell musty. If you are familiar with the smell of good feed, you should be able to tell if it's "off". It should also be dusty. Naturally, feed has some dust anyway, but contaminated feed will produce dust in greater quantities that flies up into the air. The only provocation the feed should need is scooping some up and pouring it back into the bag, and the dust should fly up. You also may find clumps in the feed, but they could be all the way at the bottom of the bag.

Coccidiosis comes in two forms: hepatic (liver) and intestinal. If I'm not mistaken, the intestinal form can kill this quickly. I don't know what it looks like, but a search should produce descriptions and pictures for you. I think there are even some here on RT.

 

[pcreel]

Thank you so much
I was thinking the food and I also purchase some corid to treat for coccidiosis just incase.
I was feeding nutrena from my local feed store and some rolled oats then I introduced a new feed. I did mix it for a week to transition.
I purchased a show Californian rabbit from a breeder. He has over 500 rabbits. He has his own food produced and told me the food I was feeding is garbage and should feed his food. It was $2 buck less so I bought 5 bags then into the next month I bought 10. He said it was a show feed
I noticed not all the rabbits care for it and a bunch have these poo bracelets hanging from the wire
I feed top quality Timothy 3 wire bail $37
And water twice a day
I did notice the rabbits seem very thirsty
The man told me not to feed hay cause it will burn their kidneys up :x
He only feeds these pellets. well I'm still feeding hay and tomorrow I'm going to buy the other feed I was using.
I will hay for a couple days and work the pellets in very slow.
I'm so frustrated that I caused my buns death
I saw the tag had a date of February on it so today is April wonder if it's old? Also when I pour to the feeders I did notice dust I thought I smelled nice different yes but my husband said it smelled wired to him.
My chickens had eaten some of the food and the chicken poo smells horrible diarrhea.
From the label the food is not that spectacular, I'm stupid for listening to this person I thought he cared and was helping.

 

[Zass]

Thank you so much
I was thinking the food and I also purchase some corid to treat for coccidiosis just incase.
I was feeding nutrena from my local feed store and some rolled oats then I introduced a new feed. I did mix it for a week to transition.
I purchased a show Californian rabbit from a breeder. He has over 500 rabbits. He has his own food produced and told me the food I was feeding is garbage and should feed his food. It was $2 buck less so I bought 5 bags then into the next month I bought 10. He said it was a show feed
I noticed not all the rabbits care for it and a bunch have these poo bracelets hanging from the wire
I feed top quality Timothy 3 wire bail $37
And water twice a day
I did notice the rabbits seem very thirsty
The man told me not to feed hay cause it will burn their kidneys up :x
He only feeds these pellets. well I'm still feeding hay and tomorrow I'm going to buy the other feed I was using.
I will hay for a couple days and work the pellets in very slow.
I'm so frustrated that I caused my buns death
I saw the tag had a date of February on it so today is April wonder if it's old? Also when I pour to the feeders I did notice dust I thought I smelled nice different yes but my husband said it smelled wired to him.
My chickens had eaten some of the food and the chicken poo smells horrible diarrhea.
From the label the food is not that spectacular, I'm stupid for listening to this person I thought he cared and was helping.

No one on here would know anything about rabbits or feed issues if we had never had anything unfortunate occur to our herds. Rest assured, the people on here sharing useful advice are doing so from the perspective of experience. As they say, "hindsight is 20 20." :grouphug:

The man told me not to feed hay cause it will burn their kidneys up :x

I think this comes from the idea that a diet too high in calcium might strain a rabbit's kidneys. It is usually alfalfa hay specifically that is deemed potentially to high in calcium. I've yet to see any actual research on the subject to prove or disprove that most alfalfa is actually overloaded with calcium, or how much calcium a rabbit can actually handle. I do know that alfalfa hay is the primary component of most pelleted rabbit feeds in the US...

 

[pcreel]

Thank u Zass
Hopefully when I switch back to the Nutrena feed all will return to normal
Would u happen to know a dosage for corid for rabbits to treat coccidiosis?

 

[alforddm]

Regarding Alfalfa in a rabbits diet...

Alfalfa hay is of utmost importance in rabbit diets (Villamide et al., 2009). Alfalfa hay is highly palatable to rabbits (de Blas et al., 2010). Recommended inclusion levels are not consistent among authors and vary from 20% up to 96%, with a majority of recommendations in the range of 30-40% (de Blas et al., 2010; Fernandez-Carmona et al., 1998; Gippert et al., 1988; Harris et al., 1981 and Cheeke et al., 1972 cited by Fernandez-Carmona et al., 1998).

Alfalfa hay is the most widely used fibre source in rabbit diets: it provides long and digestible fibre, thus promoting adequate transit time for the digesta and a balanced growth of the caecal flora (de Blas et al., 2010). Alfalfa hay inclusion decreases caecal pH and favors caecal fermentation (Garcia et al., 2005). Alfalfa hay should be coarsely ground in order to preserve its ballast function and to enhance intestinal motility (Mateos et al., 1989). An excessive substitution of alfalfa hay with highly lignified sources of fibre has deleterious effects on energy digestibility and caecal fermentative activity (Garcia et al., 2000; Garcia et al., 1999); it may hamper average daily gain and feed efficiency (Motta et al., 1996; Parigi-Bini et al., 1980). Substituting short fibre feeds such as paprika meal, sugar beet pulp or soybean hulls for alfalfa had deleterious effects on the performance of fattening, lactating and suckling rabbits. It decreased the weight gains of fattening rabbits by 6%, milk production by 13% and litter weight by 18%. This lower performance was due to lower feed efficiency as the proportion of large fibre (from alfalfa) decreased. Large fibre proportion in rabbit diets should not drop below 21%, corresponding in this case, to a minimal level of 15% alfalfa in the diet (Nicodemus et al., 2006).

As a source of energy, alfalfa cannot fully meet the growth requirements of commercial rabbits, mainly because of its physiological limitation in ingestion (Fernandez-Carmona et al., 1998).

Alfalfa hay is also a valuable source of protein (25% of the dietary protein) though its nutritive value varies greatly, depending on several factors such as the harvesting and drying process or plant maturity at harvest. Though alfalfa protein content is sufficient to meet rabbit requirements, the low digestibility of alfalfa protein makes it unsuitable for sustaining high growth rates (Fernandez-Carmona et al., 1998). The apparent digestibility of faecal protein of alfalfa hay is about 21% that of soybean meal value and its methionine content is 42% that of soybean meal one (Villamide et al., 2010). In tropical regions, where alfalfa is not readily grown, other protein sources such as bambara groundnut can be used instead (Aganga et al., 2005).

Due to heavy fertilizer applications, feeding alfalfa to rabbits may result in excess K (Mateos et al., 2010). Alfalfa hay is rich in calcium: this may be an advantage during the growth period but it should be limited or avoided in adult rabbits (Lowe, 2010). Alfalfa is also an excellent source of most of B vitamins, carotene, E vitamin and K vitamin (Mateos et al., 2010).

High levels of alfalfa hay (88% and 96%) decreased rabbit mortality by 13.6% and 10.3% respectively (Fernandez-Carmona et al., 1998).

Dehydrated alfalfa
Dehydrated alfalfa can be fed to growing rabbits at very high levels of the diet (98.5%) (Lebas et al., 2005). For weanling rabbits, inclusion rates ranging from 54% to 74% were possible in the diet (Sanchez et al., 1984). In both stages, methionine is the most limiting amino acid and should be added to the diet (Lebas et al., 2005; Sanchez et al., 1984). At a 35% inclusion, alfalfa meal gave significantly higher weight gains than the control diet (groundnut meal) (Chen Hong Ming et al., 2007).

Alfalfa meal efficiency was enhanced by 14% using low temperature dehydration (30°C-35°C) rather than classical drum-drying at 600-800°C (Lebas et al., 2005).

Feeding high levels of alfalfa meal (50% and above) has a positive effect on rabbit meat quality. It may increase total essential amino acids, tasty amino acids and alpha-linolenic acid content, thus improving the nutritional and organoleptic quality of meat (Chen Ji Hong et al., 2010; Bianchi et al., 2006). Alfalfa meal can also have an inhibiting effect on microbial growth in rabbit meat (Vannini et al., 2002).

From http://feedipedia.org/node/275

 

[Zass]

Thanks Alforddm. I know I feel my own buns do better on it. I'm not sure when alfalfa became so commonly demonized in regards to rabbit feed, or why. I just know my own buns thrive with it as part of their diet.

 

[michaels4gardens]

Thank u Zass
Hopefully when I switch back to the Nutrena feed all will return to normal
Would u happen to know a dosage for corid for rabbits to treat coccidiosis?

there are 2 dosages on the corid bottle or package, use the dosage for treatment, not the dosage for prevention...
-- often, a feed change of any kind can trigger a coccidiosis flare up,

 

[Miss M]

I'm so frustrated that I caused my buns death

There are, I suspect, very few members here who have never done something, believing it to be the right thing, that has resulted in rabbits dying. It's heartbreaking, but try not to beat yourself up. You weren't being abusive or neglectful, you were taking the advice of someone who should have a lot of knowledge to pass on, and trying to do the best for your rabbits. No one can ask more of you than that.

I'm stupid for listening to this person I thought he cared and was helping.

He probably thought he was helping, but it is surprising how many breeders believe things that are not true, and don't know things they should. I was told something that sounded outlandish, but the person telling me has been breeding meat rabbits and selling them for a long, long time. Sure enough, it turned out to be an old wives' tale.

He has his own food produced and told me the food I was feeding is garbage and should feed his food. It was $2 buck less so I bought 5 bags then into the next month I bought 10. He said it was a show feed
I noticed not all the rabbits care for it and a bunch have these poo bracelets hanging from the wire

From the label the food is not that spectacular

The best food for your rabbits is the food your rabbits do best on. I started having trouble when I transitioned my rabbits to a high-quality feed. I was so glad to finally be able to afford good feed for them, but I started seeing poop pancakes in the cages. I have now downgraded feed twice, and am now not having trouble. The feed I'm using is "low quality", but it's what my rabbits do well on ("Country Acres" by Purina).

Out of curiosity, what feed did he recommend (If there's no brand, what are the first five ingredients)?

Nutrena doesn't work for some, and works fine for others. :shrug: It has been noted here a couple of times that some breeders' rabbits have difficulty with transitioning off of Nutrena, when they haven't had trouble transitioning from other feeds. I have no explanation.

I saw the tag had a date of February on it so today is April wonder if it's old? Also when I pour to the feeders I did notice dust I thought I smelled nice different yes but my husband said it smelled wired to him.

Feed kept dry and at a good temperature lasts about 6 months before it starts losing nutrients. Feed that has been exposed to moisture can go bad extremely quickly, no matter how fresh it is. What do you mean by wired?

He only feeds these pellets.

It is true that any decent pelleted feed contains everything a rabbit needs, but many rabbits do better when provided with hay for additional fiber. It helps keep things moving through, like the fur you're seeing. It's always moving through a rabbit's system, but fiber helps keep it moving out.

The man told me not to feed hay cause it will burn their kidneys up :x

I feed top quality Timothy 3 wire bail $37

Like Zass said, alfalfa hay (which is a legume hay) is the only concern in this matter -- and even it is debatable. Timothy is a grass hay. You can feed rabbits any good grass hay. Bermuda, Bahia, etc. Whatever hay a horse can eat, a rabbit can eat. For rabbits, the hay must have been kept sheltered. I haven't seen hay at a feed store that wasn't kept sheltered, so you should be pretty safe there. Timothy is kind-of the Mercedes of grass hay. It's loved by most rabbits and expensive in most places. Less expensive grass hays are just fine, though, so feel free to spend less. You do not have to transition hay.

I'm really sorry you're going through this! I hope your rabbits recover with medication and a return to the other feed!

 

[pcreel]

I attempted to post a picture of the food label not sure where it is :?:

-- Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:23 pm --

I attempted to post a picture of the food label

-- Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:28 pm --

Alfalfa meal, oat mill, soybean hull, wheat midd, soybean meal <br /><br /> -- Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:29 pm -- <br /><br /> 16%

 

[michaels4gardens]

Miss M, pretty much said it all,
-- I would add, - if you do feed alfalfa hay along with pellets, don't bother buying the more expensive leafy hay, they waste most of the leaf anyway, --most if not all rabbit pellets are low in long stem fiber, [and just looking at the ingredients you posted, this feed would be dangerously low in long stem fiber] ---when my rabbits eat alfalfa hay, they eat the stems and let most of the leaf fall through the wire to the ground.

and-- be wary of excepting advise, from someone who is selling you something...

-- Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:13 am --

Thanks Alforddm. I know I feel my own buns do better on it. I'm not sure when alfalfa became so commonly demonized in regards to rabbit feed, or why. I just know my own buns thrive with it as part of their diet.

The info that was used to "demonize" alfalfa hay, was not based on feeding alfalfa hay, -- it was based on the assumption of feeding alfalfa leaf meal... and also extrapolated from the contents / composition of some heavily fertilized alfalfa leaf.
-- basically the assumption/ theory that "alfalfa hay is bad for rabbits" is based on nothing valid at all.... I would be more worried about the late use of pesticides on hay crops , and glyphosate [Round-up ready alfalfa] some farmers might put on their first cutting hay...
Older rabbits need more long stem fiber, and less calcium, using a grass hay as a supplement when feeding an older rabbit can address both of these issues.