Harli's vs tri's vs tort vs ermine vs sallander...

[WildWolf]

Can someone (probably Dood ) clarify the genetic differences between the color harlequin, tri color, ermine and tort.

I know that the tri's and the torts can be different colors (as in, black/orange tri, or blue tort, ect.) so I know that the B and D series can vary. I know that harli's are just solid tri's... I know that the harli gene is ej, and is the tort gene ee

How can you tell the difference between a self-based and an agouti-based harli/tort/tri by just looking at them? Is one preferable?
How do you tell what a harli or a torted rabbit has for the C series?
What's the physical differences between a harli, tort, torted harli, sallander, and ermine???? Can someone provide good pictures?


And, is this site correct? http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/breedingcolorchart.php

Thanks!

 

[ladysown]

I"m not Dood and I don't do the whole letters thing.

Tort: is a shaded rabbit. A torted tri has shading. They are not supposed to.

Harle and tri. Good to breed together. The best tris/harles are agouti based. You really should NOT put the tort colours into them.

But beyond that, get the geneticists to help you out.



(edited to add the NOT)

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks, that is a nice simple explanation. How do you distinguish the agouti harlis and tris from the self harlies and tris? I've never seen one, so some clarification about the color ring in the fur would be extremely helpful. I do appreciate your help, but also want the complicated genetics answers What do you mean when you say "you really should put the torts colours into them"?<br /><br />__________ Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:50 pm __________<br /><br />Ok, I found some more info, so I updated my questions.

 

[ladysown]

sorry.. I meant to say you should NOT mix torts into the tricolour and harlequin lines. Sorry about that miss there.

Though the reason people do it is to improve type most often, as the torts have been bred for so long they tend to have the best type. But the tort shading can last for ages.

 

[WildWolf]

oh, ok. Thanks!

 

[Dood]

A similar question was asked by WallTenter - agouti-vs-tan-vs-self-based-harlequins-t15984.html and I directed them to this thread- what-is-the-difference-genetically-too-please-t14205.html?hilit=Harlequin

__________ Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:48 pm __________

Harlequin and tri are the same but the tri has a broken gene (EN_) = A_ B_ C_ D_ ej_

A 'true' Ermine is caused by the chinchilla gene in fawn = A_ B_ cchd _ D_ ee
BUT
You can also get an Ermine looking rabbit with the shaded gene in fawn = A_ B_ cchl _ D_ ee

Tort is a self with two no extension = aa B_ C_ D _ ee
Torted harli has the Japanese harli = aa B_ C_ D _ ej_

Sallander is like a sable point but has a chin gene (cchd) instead of a shaded (cchl) = aa B_ cchd _ D _ ee

__________ Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:00 pm __________

Normally there is no way to tell what hidden recessives a rabbit has. The exception is the E-locus and rabbits who are Eej will be harlequinized. Also, a rabbit with two shaded 'cchl cchl' will be darker than a rabbit with 'cchl ch' or 'cchl c' but sometimes not enough to say for certain.

A lot of theses colours are not recognized so pictures are hard to find but this European site has quite a few pictures http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/index.html

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks! The pictures help a lot. Also, so does the thread that linked to the Wild River Rabbitry Mini Rex color guide- I did not realize that agouti rabbits always have lighter color on the inside of their ears.
So a harlequin must be agouti because if it is self than it is a torted harli?

 

[Dood]

Being Torted is not a disqualification as far as I know but the SOP for the Harlequin breed
harlequin-standards-t9495.html
Clearly states they want crisp clear sections of colour with no sootyness which is what the Torted ones will have.

I am assuming that harlequin colour approved in other breeds want the same distinct sections of colour.

__________ Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:52 pm __________

I did not realize that agouti rabbits always have lighter color on the inside of their ears

that can be eliminated with the wideband gene and additional Rufus factors.

A really good rich red seen in the black harlequins requires these

 

[WallTenter]

Torted tris rarely have good clarity of color. While that alone is not a DQ they also rarely have a clearly defined face split (because of the torted nose) and that is a DQ. Also it's just bad color, which does not impress anyone.

I am also on the search for AA (agouti) vs aa harlequins. Here's why...
If all modifiers and rufus being equal...
AAejej = agouti harlequin, lighter underside
Aaejej = agouti harlequin, lighter underside
aaejej = non-agouti harlequin, not as light an underside, in theory with better definition of color on the belly
aaeje = torted harelquin, cull

You can push rufus and other modifiers on an agouti and make that undercolor nice but just like on NZ reds - rufus can only go so far if the base isn't what it needs to be.

Am experimenting with the wideband w/ harlequins.

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks Dood. How can you tell the difference between a self-based and an agouti-based rabbit, if the agouti-based rabbit has those Rufus modifiers/wideband gene?
Thanks, WallTenter!! Is the lighter underside preferable?

 

[Dood]

How can you tell the difference between a self-based and an agouti-based rabbit,

as WallTenter stated, they will be 'sooty' and have darker points on the nose, ears and feet but not always. In one of my pictures there is a Torted harli next to a agouti harli and a tri on the end.

if the agouti-based rabbit has those Rufus modifiers/wideband gene?

these genes are tricky to see. All you can do is keep the darkest reds and the ones who have more colour on their bellies instead of white.

 

[WallTenter]

How can you tell the difference between a self-based and an agouti-based rabbit,

as WallTenter stated, they will be 'sooty' and have darker points on the nose, ears and feet but not always. In one of my pictures there is a Torted harli next to a agouti harli and a tri on the end.

Only an aa eje will have the tort markings (sooty markings). aa ejej will just look like regular harlequins/tris (if they have a broken gene).

 

[Dood]

Only an aa eje will have the tort markings (sooty markings). aa ejej will just look like regular harlequins/tris (if they have a broken gene).

Interesting, I had not heard of this effect, but I am not surprised as the colours on the E- locus act in strange ways. I guess some of my harli and tri's are actually self based but hidden due to getting two harli genes.

As for figuring out if your Harlequin or Tri is actually a self with two Japanese harli genes, test breeding an 'aa ejej' rabbit to a tort 'aa ee' would only produce sooty looking 'harliquinized torts' and never an agouti or tort.

 

[WildWolf]

All you can do is keep the darkest reds and the ones who have more colour on their bellies instead of white.

So the lighter belly is not preferable? I thought that the agouti harlequins have a lighter underside?? If undersides with color is more preferable, then don't you want a self-based harlequin?

Thanks, you guys are helping a lot!!

 

[WallTenter]

WildWolf that's the million dollar question, I'll let you know as soon as I can figure out for certain which harlies are self and which are agouti lol it's hard to tell the difference! Not all agouti Harlies have light undersides and not all self based Harlies have dark undersides.

And yep aaeje = torted harlequin, aaejej = just another harlequin. You have to have that lone little e in there to make the difference. That is why so many (I'm finding out) encourage only breeding agouti based animals so you can hide the ones with a non-extension in there.

I can tell you that aaeje rabbits have just as much clarity, alternations, etc. as AAeje. There are more factors at play than JUST A and ej genes - lots of modifiers in there that are not being tracked. That's why it's such a difficult breed. When you have a really well marked one, it will either have a white toe or the mother will overclean and take a piece of the ear/tail off, or it will get sudden kit death syndrome and be dead one morning in the nestbox. I have heard if you dance naked under a new moon and chant "har-le-quin, har-le-quin" you can get the best ones with no parts missing. <br /><br />__________ Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:17 am __________<br /><br />

WildWolf that's the million dollar question, I'll let you know as soon as I can figure out for certain which harlies are self and which are agouti lol it's hard to tell the difference! Not all agouti Harlies have light undersides and not all self based Harlies have dark undersides.

And yep aaeje = torted harlequin, aaejej = just another harlequin. You have to have that lone little e in there to make the difference. That is why so many (I'm finding out) encourage only breeding agouti based animals so you can hide the ones with a non-extension in there.

I can tell you that aaeje rabbits can have just as much clarity, alternations, etc. as AAeje and Aaeje. There are more factors at play than JUST A and ej genes - lots of modifiers in there that are not being tracked. That's why it's such a difficult breed. When you have a really well marked one, it will either have a white toe or the mother will overclean and take a piece of the ear/tail off, or it will get sudden kit death syndrome and be dead one morning in the nestbox. I have heard if you dance naked under a new moon and chant "har-le-quin, har-le-quin" you can get the best ones with no parts missing.

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks! If you could post pictures of your rabbits after you decide who's agouti and who's self, that would be awesome
The self based harli's usually, but not all the time, have the darker, more desirable, underside, right?

I just had to fall in love with the difficult color, didn't I?!

 

[WallTenter]

I will as I have them. We do have one confirmed self doe that is also carrying tort (so she's aaeje) will try to get some photos of her underside next time I'm over at my business partner's place (where the doe is housed). She is no more brindled or clear than her aaejej or Aaejej or AAejej littermates. In fact she was cleaner than most of them. She's just one of many examples I have seen and am finding via talking to other harli/tri breeders.

I am learning more about harlequin genetics talking to rex breeders than I can from other harlequin breeders it seems :/. They just keep them for their tri programs, but because mini rex (and rex) come in a plethora of colors they have all kinds of other genes mixed in there so they see those other genes playing with their harlis and tris.

There is also some interesting posts I've read on german and french sites (I can read pretty good french but really need good old google translate for the german). It's a maze of lingo glad I sometimes suffer from insomnia and stay up all night researching rabbit genetics!

 

[Susan]

Here's a theory. Could the difference between an agouti and a self harlequin, be that the agouti has nose lacing(which agoutis do) and a self doesn't(which they don't have)

 

[WallTenter]

Japanese gene thwarts us again. That is unless every single Harlequin, Harlequin x NZ and Harlequin x Palomino in my barn is aa . I literally just went outside with a flashlight to check.

 

[WildWolf]

Oh wow... this is way more confusing than I thought. Well, when I start breeding, I will be on the lookout for the answer to the million dollar question <br /><br />__________ Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:57 pm __________<br /><br />OK- I have one more question to try to clear up my confusion...
The only reason agouti tri colors are considered better for breeding than self tri colors is because the agouti gene can sometimes cover up the non extension gene, if your rabbit has it... right?

Because self based tri colors usually have a better, darker, underside, but self based tri colors carrying the non extension gene almost always show torted colorings.
Agouti tri colors usually have the understandable, lighter, belly, but that can be changed to some extent with modifiers.