Harlequin / Tri color English Lops

[luvabunny]

[/attachment]I am receiving a couple of baby elops at convention. They are a brother and sister. The male is a blk/orange harly. The female is a cream. Their parents are blk/orange harly and blk/orange tri. They have siblings I wasn't able to purchase that were tri color.

My question, how likely am I to get tri colors from crossing the brother to the sister? Next question, how likely am I to get tri colors from crossing the harly male to any of my solid does, which are unrelated to him? (they are all sisters - 2 blue, 1 blue torte, 1 cream) The sisters are out of solid blue parents.

With the harly gene, is there any possibility of getting tri's from him if I don't cross him with a broken? If it's a genetic improbability, I won't waste my time breeding to solids and waiting and hoping, and just purchase some brokens to begin with.

I have a few other breeders who will be in contact with me with offers of bunnies for sale to be delivered to convention. With this information, I will be better able to purchase the needed colors, as my goal is heavily patterned tri colors.

Oh, and one last thing. Are crosses between 2 rabbits from the same parents but different litters still considered brother/sister breeding?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh, and one last thing. Are crosses between 2 rabbits from the same parents but different litters still considered brother/sister breeding?

Finally! A question I can answer!

Yes they are- despite the age difference, they are still full brother/sister.

Congrats on the new bunnies- you can already tell they will have big ears! Make sure to post pics when you get all the new rabbits! We don't get to see the ELops much, and I would love to see baby pics.

 

[MaggieJ]

I can't help with the genetics questions, but I just have to say... They are way too cute!

 

[ZRabbits]

What cuties. Hope you do post pics of them as they grow. There is never enough pics.

And I kind of thought that they would be brother/sister because of the same parentage but different litters. I would be leery to breed brother/sister. Now Brother/Mom, or Sister/Dad could work for you to obtain your Tri's. That's what I'll be doing with my DM Lionheads.

Karen

 

[luvabunny]

Well, I purchased the pair with the intention of breeding them together in hopes of getting tri's. I am somewhat concerned however, as their parents were also brother / sister.

These pics are from about two weeks ago. The seller has promised me updated pics around the 21st. The babies should be about 5 weeks old then. I'm looking forward to seeing how they are maturing and how their ears are growing.

 

[ZRabbits]

Hoping your project succeeds. I found this regarding brother/sister breeding. And if you have a good foundation, you can enhance it by breeding brother/sister. So your tri experiment may be successful. Can't wait to hear how the babies are doing. As long as ear length, body type, teeth, etc are good, it could work.

Here's the article I found.

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-br ... tcrossing/

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

[/attachment]View attachment 1I am receiving a couple of baby elops at convention. They are a brother and sister. The male is a blk/orange harly. The female is a cream. Their parents are blk/orange harly and blk/orange tri. They have siblings I wasn't able to purchase that were tri color.

My question, how likely am I to get tri colors from crossing the brother to the sister? Next question, how likely am I to get tri colors from crossing the harly male to any of my solid does, which are unrelated to him? (they are all sisters - 2 blue, 1 blue torte, 1 cream) The sisters are out of solid blue parents.

With the harly gene, is there any possibility of getting tri's from him if I don't cross him with a broken? If it's a genetic improbability, I won't waste my time breeding to solids and waiting and hoping, and just purchase some brokens to begin with.

tri colors are broken harlies, so if neither in the pair is broken, you will not get a tri color. so it is a genetic impossibility.

i would not have a serious problem with brother to sister, just cull hard, keep track and add something else next breeding or two.

 

[Southbound_SF]

Ditto what sky said: You won't get brokens unless at least one parent is a broken. It's a dominant gene, so it can't "hide".

SB

 

[luvabunny]

So, if I am understanding correctly....even tho other bunnies in the same litter were tri colored, these 2 won't produce tri's without breeding to a broken, because if they had received the broken gene to pass along, they would be brokens themselves, correct?

So, with that in mind, am I going to wind up with a bunch of harly babies, breeding to his sister, and my blue, blue torte and cream does? Or are those colors more dominant than the harly gene?

Also, I have broken blue and broken black does, both gold tipped steel. I'm comfortable that I could get tri's if they were not steel, but will the steel gene cause issues in tri's? Neither of these does showed the steel coloration until they were over 3 months old.

The breeder has a very nice broken black unrelated doe for sale. If I can't get tri's breeding to his sister, maybe she will allow me to trade for it. Again, I may be getting into other issues, as the baby is out of both agouti parents (a broken opal and chinchilla). Or, if she won't allow me to transfer, I just need to find a nice broken buck to breed all of my solid does to.

 

[skysthelimit]

Yes to the first one.

Yes to the second one, only if the sister did not inherit the harlie gene. She probably did.


The steel gene is co dominant with many things, I would not try it. It will mess up your harlies. It will mess up many colors.

Broken black will work, but the buck must carry the harlie gene, or you won't get tris in the first generation. Or he needs to carry the non extension read gene.

i think I got that right, it's kind of late for me.

 

[luvabunny]

Since the buck is a harly himself, that means he has to carry the harly gene, doesn't it?

The breeder also has a broken torte doe, out of the same harly buck as the harly buck I am getting, but out of a different doe, making her a half sister.

Since she obviously carries the broken gene, being broken herself, would she be a better choice to mate with my harly buck, to get tri babies first generation?

 

[skysthelimit]

Since the buck is a harly himself, that means he has to carry the harly gene, doesn't it?

The breeder also has a broken torte doe, out of the same harly buck as the harly buck I am getting, but out of a different doe, making her a half sister.

Since she obviously carries the broken gene, being broken herself, would she be a better choice to mate with my harly buck, to get tri babies first generation?

well you will get mostly likely torted tris, and if you are not showing or selling to people that show, this may not be a problem for you. torted tris are a disqualification. but torted means the non extension gene, which is the one you want. tris get better color with agoutis, the best would be first a tri, then a castor or opal with the harlie or non extension gene, or a red or orange, then a tort. check out this site. http://gardenshedbunnies.weebly.com/bre ... olors.html<br /><br />__________ Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:57 am __________<br /><br />

Since the buck is a harly himself, that means he has to carry the harly gene, doesn't it?

The breeder also has a broken torte doe, out of the same harly buck as the harly buck I am getting, but out of a different doe, making her a half sister.

Since she obviously carries the broken gene, being broken herself, would she be a better choice to mate with my harly buck, to get tri babies first generation?

well you will get mostly likely torted tris, and if you are not showing or selling to people that show, this may not be a problem for you. torted tris are a disqualification. but torted means the non extension gene, which is the one you want. tris get better color with agoutis, the best would be first a tri, then a castor or opal with the harlie or non extension gene, or a red or orange, then a tort. check out this site. http://gardenshedbunnies.weebly.com/bre ... olors.html

i'm not sure how common tri is in elops, but instead of doing a lot of guess work breeding or having to try to buy brokens with the ej-harlie or ee-non extension gene 9of course unless you already have a source) the breed back to parents as ZRabbits suggested would be the est bet.

that's what I'm doing with my mini rexes. I have a booted tri color carrier castor, and a castor buck that does not carry pretty much anything else. When bred to two black females, all of the kits were castor. He will be bred to the tri carrier, then a broken son bred back.

 

[luvabunny]

OMG! I am never gonna get it! So confusing!

In answer, tri's are fairly rare in elops. They are a new variety, but I have always loved the tri colors. Not so much the harly's. When I quit raising rabbits before, tri's were just being introduced in mini rexes. As an addition, there are no castors in elops either.

This breeder has created her own line of tris, using the actual harlequin breed. I have done a lot of reading on her site, and feel comfortable she is not just some backyard breeder doing a lot of experimenting. Most of her rabbits are red/white and blue pedigreed and a great majority are registered. Most of them have at least 1 leg and quite a few are GC'd.

She obviously understands the genetics much better than I.

I truly appreciate all of your help. Since I currently have mostly solid does, I know I will be looking for a broken buck. It sounds like I need to find bkn opal, bkn red or bkn orange.

Finally, how do I know what the genetic string is for my babies? Obviously, some of the variables are set, just by looking at the rabbit, the regular coat color, the base and ring pattern, the eye color, etc. But, without breeding, how do you know what the recessives, or hidden codes may be? And if you don't know the exact genetic code of the rabbit you are breeding to, I still can't follow how you make an accurate pattern.

I know there are lots of help threads stickied here. I am going to take much more time going thru them and see if some of it will sink in.

 

[skysthelimit]

OMG! I am never gonna get it! So confusing!

In answer, tri's are fairly rare in elops. They are a new variety, but I have always loved the tri colors. Not so much the harly's.

She obviously understands the genetics much better than I.
It sounds like I need to find bkn opal, bkn red or bkn orange.

Finally, how do I know what the genetic string is for my babies? Obviously, some of the variables are set, just by looking at the rabbit, the regular coat color, the base and ring pattern, the eye color, etc. But, without breeding, how do you know what the recessives, or hidden codes may be? And if you don't know the exact genetic code of the rabbit you are breeding to, I still can't follow how you make an accurate pattern.

Sorry, castor is chestnut agouti for most breeds.

I was afraid you might say that. Then there are quite a few steps to take, but hang in there, I'm going to do the same with my mini rexes and standards as well.

I start out mapping my kits based on the kits appearance and the genetics of the pedigree. In those cases, they will have more than one string, until they can be bred and the rest filled out. some things are genetically impossible, and some more likely than others. Learn which genes must appear to be carried by the rabbit, and which genes can hide. Unfortunately, both the harlie-ej and non extension-e can hide and you would never know you had them until they pair up, they are the least dominant on the E series. In some cases, without a little inbreeding, you will never see certain colors (in your own herd).

 

[luvabunny]

The breeder has generously agreed to swap my deposit from the solid orange doe who is Packards sister, to another doe she may have available. She has a bkn chestnut doe, out of a bkn black magpie. I think the coloration is a little suspect on the bkn chestnut. The spots aren't well defined. I've never seen what I thought could be called a bkn black magpie, but she sort of looks like a bkn brown magpie.
Anyway, what would you think about throwing the magpie gene into the mix? It is, after all, agouti coloration with white. I believe her daddy was a bkn opal, which is more agouti coloration.

 

[skysthelimit]

Magpie is harlequin and chin gene. The chin gene acting on an agouti strips all of the red/brown/orange (depending on your breed) color off of the hair shaft. It's not so much the agouti as it is the chestnut/chocolate/dilute agouti that deepens the red/orange of the tri color. There is a possibility that with the magpie, you are going to get more magpies, which are not showable colors. You could get more mismarked kits.

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

I was under the impression if I bred my magpie to my castor or opal I would have a possibility of chinchilla and harlequin. She is due in a few weeks. Fingers crossed.<br /><br />__________ Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:53 am __________<br /><br />And if I breed her to black I could get more magpie black and sable.

 

[skysthelimit]

I was under the impression if I bred my magpie to my castor or opal I would have a possibility of chinchilla and harlequin. She is due in a few weeks. Fingers crossed.

__________ Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:53 am __________

And if I breed her to black I could get more magpie black and sable.

you won't get sables, magpie is chin dark, sable is chin light.
Possibly yes, or badly colored castors or opals. I had a castor from a chin/blue breeding. Bred her to a broken black a few times. Never did get a chin. The black does not carry REW. All for my castors were off colored though. Since chin strips the color it does not have the best modifiers to produce good tri color. Great for magpie.

check out this warning An absolute no no for tris is mixing dark chin (as found in magpies/ chins). In short don't mix your magpies with your tri's or later on you'll regret it. mucky colors. although chin and chestnut are agoutis, they don't mix, and you will have a hard time getting good colored chestnuts, especially castors.

http://www.barrowbunnies.com/id44.html

 

[luvabunny]

Ok, I have spoken with the breeder, and after numerous e-mails, have decided to take only the buck for now. It's finally cooled off here in Oklahoma and we have several shows coming up, where I hope to find a nice broken herd buck to breed to all of my solid does, and a couple of broken does to breed to my harly buck.

She updated the pictures. Here he is at 5 1/2 weeks old. I'm very pleased with how he's coming along. Even tho harly isn't a showable color, I want him to be of a good type and ear length.

Let me know what you think.

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

Truly those are such cute ears!!!!