harlequin/new zealand

[ladysown]

Since harlequin showing is predominately the colour markings, but Ontario judges liking good type as well....

I've been trying to figure out how best to do my harlequins.

I love the look of the magpie harlequin breed rabbit. Chocolate and blue just make me smile.

BUT...my typey does are all six pounders.
I don't want to raise six pound meat rabbits.

I want to raise 8 lb meat rabbits. That's a good size for me.

So I've been thinking.
Find a good black New Zealand.
bred that to my small Harle does.
get some good kits from that.
Then bred those kits to a typey clean marked harlequin buck.

Do you forsee any problems with that?

Or other possible ways of achieving my hopes?
it's not that I'm looking for a short cut to what I want, but I am so not wanting to have six pound meat does. I want good 8 lbers.

A nicely typed 8 lb rabbit that has the harle markings.

thanks for your input.

 

[lyndseyrk]

Interesting, as I was just thinking this past weekend of doing the same thing. We went to the tri-annual Swap Days on Sunday. I brought a long a rabbit carrier just in case. When we went to it last fall, there were Harles everywhere (but I didn't have space for them). So, I figured I'd find a nice doe this time around...didn't see ANY. Very little rabbits at all.

I was planning on getting a Harle doe to breed to a NZW buck. Then keeping a Harle marked doe from that breeding and breed back to NZW (but I want the big rabbits).

I'm not really "up" on my Harle genetics, but I'd think you'd have better luck crossing with a white NZ instead of a black. Won't black pretty much trump most of the Harle genes? I thought you could breed a REW with anything. At most you'd end up with only 1/2 REW.

As far as size wise: breed a 10 lb NZ to a 6 lb Harle. That would give you about an average of 8 lb rabbit. Bred back to a Harle would probably put them in around 7 lbs (if you go with average weights).

 

[ladysown]

see I don't know what the colour difference will make.
I thought black because then you get a deep black on the harlequins (just like when I breed harlequin to my smallish red NZ doe I get really nice red on my harle marked kits).
I'm not sure what would happen with the white.

Part of my reason for asking.

 

[moonkitten]

Well, you could shop around for some bigger does. I mean, the harle standard is minimum 7 lbs for does, so yours are quite a bit underweight. They might be proportional, but if they can't make standard weight, I wouldn't consider that good type.

If you're going to outcross, you should look into the genetics and understand what the harlequin should be and what you would be adding and where to go to get back. For example, the harlequin should be an agouti rabbit, and a black NZ is a self. That sort of thing.

Especially if you want to show in Ontario - where the judges can be very, er, undiplomatic, about obvious crossbreeds on the table. <br /><br />__________ Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:51 pm __________<br /><br />Just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't use white. A REW rabbit can be carrying just about any mixture of genes and all you know for sure is that they have 2 of the 'c' allele. So anything else is completely unknown and you have less idea about what you are integrating.

 

[Half Caper Farm]

Well, I can tell you what you get when you breed a Harlequin buck to a black NZ - you get black kits. With the odd white toe or speck of white on the nose. :roll: Oh wait, I got a couple of blue kits too. :lol:

Not trying to crossbreed, just haven't got my NZ buck yet.

 

[moonkitten]

So just to be sure I wasn't blowing smoke, I went and tossed my 6 harle does on the scale. They weighed: 7.8, 8.0, 8.1, 8.4, 8.9 and 10.1

Yes, that last doe is over the standard, but since I mostly breed for meat and usually take juniors to the shows, I don't mind the oversized doe

Are you *sure* your harlequin does are only 6 pounds? The doe I sold you in January is the daughter of the 8.4 doe and she seemed to be growing right on schedule to me.

 

[ladysown]

well... bluebelle comes in a 6.02, I haven't weighed your lass yet as to me she's still growing and since she's a shy lass I'm for the most part letting her be, my biggest doe comes in at 8 but she's long and not typey. And Cora is just a bit bigger than Slip who is a 5 lb mini rex. But she's long in her mid-section. haven't weighed her but she feels like a 6 lb rabbit.

Perhaps I'll have to give them all a weigh tomorrow.<br /><br />__________ Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:08 pm __________<br /><br />oh, and I wouldn't show them as crossbreds! That would be...lying! And I try hard not to do that.

 

[moonkitten]

bluebelle comes in a 6.02.... haven't weighed her but she feels like a 6 lb rabbit.

Ok, well if you want to sell pedigreed harlequins and show occasionally, then the fastest way to get your herd up to standard weight is to buy a couple of correctly sized harlequins. If you try to work them up by crossbreeding, you've just set yourself up for at least 3 generations of non-showable, non-pedigreed sales. I know that Kevin's does are all pushing the upper end of the standard, mine are in the 8 pound range and I can't imagine that Sheelagh's are any smaller since we all trade stock back and forth, so there are good harlequins around.

If you're looking for *just* meat stock, then get some more NZ and you can sell and show them too We always need more NZ exhibitors! (and I've got some of these adorable spotted NZ now.... :mrgreen: )

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

When you breed a harlequin(choc magpie) to a Argente brun you get solid chocolate kits that have SILVERING!! So how does a harl throw what is esentially selfs? I would assume they all carry the ej gene though, and I am wondering what became of the chin gene?. There were 8 with 7 raised. The buck is nice he is looking pretty big with some height and a chunky hindend! we have named them Silverquins. LOL

 

[moonkitten]

When you breed a harlequin(choc magpie) to a Argente brun you get solid chocolate kits that have SILVERING!! So how does a harl throw what is esentially selfs? I would assume they all carry the ej gene though, and I am wondering what became of the chin gene?.

What is in the 'C' allele for an Argente brun? I am guessing it would be full colour and unknown like 'C-' which would be dominant over any 'cch' or 'c' that the buck donated.

Due to the chinchilla gene suppressing any agouti coloration, magpies can quite easily be self rabbits and probably many of them are self carriers due to crossing with self breeds. The japanese needs to be agouti and since most of us are crossing japanese and magpie, they 'A' allele gets pretty mixed up. Hard to say without test breeding, but a lot of my magpies threw silver martin coloration when crossed to a self so there's definitely some variation in that allele.

Without my genetics book, I'm just guessing

But yes, the kits should all be carriers for 'ej' and if bred back to a harlequin, you might get some silvered, harle-marked rabbits --- which I'm sure would be gorgeous!

 

[DevonW]

I think it's a good idea to buy a big typey NZ buck especially if you want to improve the type in Harlequins, bring up the size, and get better meat qualities. My "Silverquins" are out of an Argent buck with excellent type and meat qualities, and a large, long, bony, not so hot type wise Harlequin doe and they are all a vast improvement over the Harlequin, even if they're all Argente Bruns, and they have the growth rate of the Argent which is wicked...

...Or... (Shameless Breed Promotion) You can just get a couple of Bruns :mrgreen: They're a historic breed, not many around and one step away from getting a COD. They're beautiful, grow fast, are excellent mothers, and are just sweet big bunnies.

 

[ladysown]

well... maybe then there is just something wrong in my management style.... though Sheelagh's been here and she says I take good care of my buns, and if I'm doing something wrong I really don't know what it would be....

 

[moonkitten]

well... maybe then there is just something wrong in my management style

I doubt that management style would result in rabbits a pound or more less than the standard, unless they were getting just a few wisps of grass during the growth stage or something, and I *know* you're buying good quality feed for them

Do put the does up on a scale and make sure they aren't more than you think.

I don't know where you got your first harlequins, but if you were buying/trading for pet stock off kijiji, it's possible you got culls or mixed breeds to start with. With my doe and Sheelagh's buck, you should be making progress towards the Standard.

 

[ladysown]

started off with D&J's, then Kevin, then you.

 

[moonkitten]

started off with D&J's, then Kevin, then you.

Well D&J didn't have the Standard or show, so it's possible they sold the runts without knowing why they wouldn't make good breeding stock. But the ideal harle doe is 8 lbs and they shouldn't be less than 6 lbs so you need to add size if you want to continue showing and not just for meat. You could definitely cross breed your small does to get them up to the minimum weight, but it would delay your showing/breeding stock sales.

I think you must have at least a couple of rabbits that meet the Standard, so you should be ok if you cull hard and not keep the runts -- even if they're cute. I know how hard it is, we've got a couple of cages of one-eared or other non-showable stock.

 

[ladysown]

so overall I just need patience.... Right now I feel like I"m lacking in patience.....

 

[moonkitten]

Right now I feel like I"m lacking in patience.....

I hear ya!!

I'm trying to develop broken red NZ, but I don't have access to any broken red rabbits, so I'm starting with a broken black crossed to red to get broken chestnut, then need to breed back to red, and maybe to red again to restore the colour. Each step takes 6 months minimum assuming I get at least one well typed offspring with good broken markings.

 

[Brody]

stop talking about broken NZ ... stop

my new "pet" (don't ask!) is a nzw - what a honey this dude is ... I'm tempted to spray paint him so he looks broken .. and give him contacts to brown up his eyes

 

[ladysown]

now that could tempt me <br /><br />__________ Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:07 pm __________<br /><br />weights

Friend bounce - 9 lbs, big lanky doe
Sendar (MK"s rabbit) - 6.15
Kendra (rescue doe) - 5.15
Cora - 7.04
bluebelle (from Kevin) - 7.05

so a bit heavy than 6 lbs, but not the 8 lb rabbits that I want.
So what do I do?

 

[moonkitten]

Sendar (MK"s rabbit) - 6.15
Cora - 7.04
bluebelle (from Kevin) - 7.05

Not sure what to tell you, but depending on their ages they may fill out a tiny bit more. I have Sendar's sister (who was definitely the poorer sister of the two) and she's 7.2 lbs with 10 three week old babies on her. She's a little worn and not in as much condition as I'd like, so I guess that if she were not feeding so many kits, she'd be closer to 7.6. I'm really surprised that your black doe is a full pound lighter. That makes no sense to me at all