Getting Started with Rabbits...

[Teddy2511]

Hello Everyone


I am still fairly new to the forum, as well as to breeding and raising rabbits. I have only had my Hollands for just about a year now, and I breed them occasionally as a hobby. (I have a buck and doe pair as well as a young doe that I kept from their first litter.) I am hoping to get a little more involved with raising rabbits in the coming year and I have some questions for those of you with more experience; I want to make sure I do things well!

First off, I am an older teenager still living at home, so most of this (setup, rabbits, feed) will come out of my own pockets, which I must admit, are not very deep. I am hoping to create a setup that, once built, can at least break even cost wise, and will hopefully not cost me too much to construct. Next year we planning to build a barn approximately 36x60 ft for our horses and cows, and my rabbitry will either get to be in a 12x12 section of that barn, or in a shed built from scrap sheets of metal and fiberglass from our old cow shed.

My first question is, what kind of setup would be the most cleanup efficient and cost effective? I would like a to construct a setup that can be easily cleaned and won't cost too much to maintain. Also, would you suggest building or buying cages? Should they be hanging cages, stacking w/ pans, or a different setup all together? And on another note, what are your opinions on litter training, or would you not suggest that option? Please, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Right now my rabbits are being housed in a small unfinished section of our basement and we are all looking forward to having them in their own place.

Secondly, I am very interested in possibly taking on a meat/fur breed. I have never actually had a chance to try rabbit meat before and most of my family members are skeptical, so this is still only a wish at the end of a very long wish list. But that said, I still have some questions just in case I do decide that this a route I want to go.
First, I have been researching several breeds more in depth than others, and for those of you who have raised these breeds, which would you suggest? I am most interested in Beverens, Silver Fox, Champagne and Creme d'Argents, American Chinchilla, Satin, and Rex. Of these breeds, the Beveren is the one that caught my interest above the rest, partially because it is very uncommon especially in my area, and partially because I think they are very beautiful rabbits. I was also interested in the Silver Fox and d'Argent breeds though, so who knows what I may end up with some day! The main things I am looking for, is a breed that matures fairly quickly and has a good meat to cost of feed ratio, and also develops a nice coat that could be tanned and used for crafts and such. (And what age should they be butchered for meat or fur?)
And on the subject of large breeds, what size, cages, grow out pens, and nest boxes should be used?

I am also trying to figure out why (Other than the fact that I love raising rabbits, lol!) I should consider raising meat rabbits over raising broiler chickens? We live on 35 acres and already have a huge chicken coop full of laying hens, so having the space and experience, is there any reason that I should choose meat rabbits over meat birds?

Back to the rabbits I already have... It was kind of love at first sight with the Holland lop breed, but now that I have some (if minimal) experience raising them, I would like to increase my herd of three starting with their quality. I have done enough research and looked at enough rabbits to recognize the difference between a good Holland and a bad one, but because I am no expert I am wondering how I should go about increasing my herd's quality, without buying a bunch of bunnies that turn out to have the wrong traits I need? From what I can tell, the areas that I need the most improvement in are the crown and ears, and the shoulders, but I am not 100% sure.. (I will try to get pictures of them as soon as I can) I could use as many suggestions and tips as you have to give!


Okay, sorry about the long list of questions... I'm hoping to make sure that I get off to good start, and hopefully avoid many of the mistakes I made back at the beginning!


Thanks in advance!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

My first question is, what kind of setup would be the most cleanup efficient and cost effective?

All wire hanging cages in a single tier. I have two tiers with dropping boards below the top cages which need to be scraped. It takes very little effort, but if you have only one level you eliminate that chore.

Also, would you suggest building or buying cages?

I would buy precut cages that you put together yourself. Klubertanz is an excellent company, but BASS is pretty fair too- I have BASS cages and they are holding up well.

I have never actually had a chance to try rabbit meat before and most of my family members are skeptical

Rabbit is a mild flavored meat with a firmer texture than chicken. It is delicious.

It is also the best meat for you. It has the highest protein, least calories, least cholesterol, almost no fat, and you can eat smaller portions. If you normally eat 12oz of chicken as a serving, you would likely eat a 6oz portion of rabbit.

Perhaps you can find a local raiser to buy a rabbit to try (either pre processed, or butcher yourself), and see how the family likes it.

I have been researching several breeds

I have Rex rabbits and I absolutely love them. They generally grow more slowly than other meat breeds, but I love their personalities and their fur.

I also recently acquired a pair of Beverens, and they are beautiful and sweet rabbits. The buck is rather hyper, but the doe is quite calm. He is a couple of months younger, so that may be a factor.

I have not bred them yet. I have shown the doe and she has two "legs" so far, and I would like to get one more leg for her Grand Championship before I breed her.

According to her breeder, her mother consistently gives large litters that mature to 5lb butchering weight by 8 weeks.

And on the subject of large breeds, what size, cages, grow out pens, and nest boxes should be used?

My Rex does are in 24" x 30" x 18" high holes, and the bucks are in 24" x 24". I would like it if they were larger, but they are adequate, and they fit my available space.

I use 10" x 18" x 9" high nests for the Rex.

My Beverens are currently in 24" x 36" x 18" high cages. I am planning on building them taller cages out of 24" wire. The new cages will likely be 24" x 48" for the working does and 24" x 36" for the bucks and dry does. I have an aviary panel that is 4' x 7' that will be used as the floor wire, and that seemed to be a good way to split the space.

The nest I plan to use for the Beveren doe is 11" x 20" x 10" high.

My growout pens vary, but most are 3' x 4'. (Those aviary panels again!)

I am also trying to figure out why (Other than the fact that I love raising rabbits, lol!) I should consider raising meat rabbits over raising broiler chickens?

Rabbits are a lot cuter, first of all!

If you raise broilers, you will likely have the expense of buying chicks unless you get a breed that still has the ability to mate naturally. Most commercial breeds will not set their own eggs, so you will also need an incubator.

After your purchase of your initial rabbit stock you will have a continuous source of breeding stock to replace the older animals.

Rabbits are more pleasant to process (not as stinky) and are easier too. No plucking involve, you just skin them.

Plus, they provide lots of wonderful fertilizer for the garden which can be applied immediately. Chicken manure needs to be "aged" or it will burn your plants.

I am wondering how I should go about increasing my herd's quality, without buying a bunch of bunnies that turn out to have the wrong traits I need?

Simply keep the best offspring that you have with the qualities that you are looking to improve. Avoid breeding two rabbits that share the same weakness.

If you post pics of your rabbits properly posed, there are people here that will be happy to help you evaluate them. Entering your stock in shows is a great way to get outside opinions on them as well.

I'm hoping to make sure that I get off to good start, and hopefully avoid many of the mistakes I made back at the beginning!

This forum is filled with great information, so browse as many old threads as you can. If you have any specific questions, just ask, and you will find plenty of people willing to help!

 

[Dood]

what kind of setup would be the most cleanup efficient

Hanging cages, or cages on a rack with wire floors, no trays. The poop falls to the ground and you sweep it up a couple times a week and dump in the flower beds. Rabbits are pretty weather resistant and a lean to or 2 or 3 sided shed can offer enough protection if placed in a sheltered area outside.

opinions on litter training

you are breeding for the pet trade, so I would put in litter trays, if they use them, great, if not then clean up is easy. Think about how most pet bunnies live, they have litter boxes, drink from bottles rather than crocks etc... Mean/nasty or messy/dirty pet bunnies get given away for free = snake food, so make sure your breeding stock has good pet temperaments and grooming habits to pass on to their offspring, socialize the little ones and train them how to use a litter box so no one has a reason to want to get rid of them.

a breed that matures fairly quickly and has a good meat to cost of feed ratio,

Hard to get in the breeds you listed. Commerical New Zealands and Californians (not show stock) are untouchable for these traits.

Beverens, Silver Fox, Champagne and Creme d'Argents, American Chinchilla, Satin, and Rex

Most of these breeds are show stock now a days, so growth rate and feed converion is not a priority in selecting breeding stock. Ask around and you may find a breeder who focuses on both. Your best bet for meat is probably the Am Chin as they are more of a meat rabbit than fur, but any rabbit can be eaten so pick something you like.

And what age should they be butchered for meat or fur?)

Meat rabbits are typically butchered at 5 pounds which can take 8 to 16 weeks to acheive.
Fur is commercially harvested from rabbits that are over 6 months old. Pelts younger than that tend to tear and rip easier but are still useful as trim and for crafts, just not heavy duty abuse like full length coats.

And on the subject of large breeds, what size, cages, grow out pens, and nest boxes should be used?

There are legal requirements on cage sizes that you can look up but I think 36 X 24 is a minimum size for 8 to 12 pound breeding rabbits and I keep my weaned kits in a colony pen that is 10 by 10 feet, so I cannot comment on grow out cages. My nest boxes hang over the door to the cages, so they dont take up cage space, and they are 20 long by 10 high and 10 wide for my American Chinchillas and New Zealand crosses.

any reason that I should choose meat rabbits over meat birds

I have both on the farm, I personally dont like chickens as livestock, they are my sisters department. I have always liked rabbits, they are quiet, intellegent, cute and cuddly, and have a cleaner smell, at least to my nose, than birds. I mostly breed them for the raw pet food trade. It is hard to get rabbit for ferrets, reptiles, dogs and cats, while chicken is everywhere and very affordable so I can still sell my bunnies at a decent price and actually make a little money.

For the family to eat, rabbit is an aquired taste. The texture of the meat is very different from chicken and my family wont eat it if it is identifiable as rabbit, so we have rabbit stew, stir fry, and use ground rabbit in chili, tacos, lasagna etc... I am learning to de-bone a whole rabbit (from a video posted on this forum) and hope to have rolled and stuffed rabbit roast but I need more practice. :mrgreen:

 

[-HRanchito]

My DH has been rolling his eyes for months over my rabbits, but all of a sudden this morning he tells me we should get a fur breed! So now i'm wondering some of the same things.

One thing I was thinking about is to get a pair of fur rabbits and a meat doe, then eat the meat mutts at fryer age and grow out the purebreds for their coats. I'm thinking I want to just throw em all in a colony for my part. Angora cages tend to need lots of maintenance and I want to be as lazy as possible if i'm expanding the rabbit project.

I do like Kammalop for cages..they come to all the Colorado shows and their cages are well made and priced reasonably. Considering all the hours of cutting and J-clipping and the initial expense of rolls of wire, I think it's a good deal, esp. when I can cut out the shipping.

I think a lot of it depends on what you want the fur to look like-- all the different fur breeds have different looking and feeling fur. I don't really have experience raising them though. I know our meat/fur rabbit owners will have good insight!

Oh, and I've never slaughtered a bird, but I hear it smells terrible, and there's plucking and/or boiling water involved. Dressing out a rabbit is very very easy.

My nest boxes hang over the door to the cages, so they dont take up cage space, and they are 20 long by 10 high and 10 wide for my American Chinchillas and New Zealand crosses.

Whoah! Have you posted pics of this?!?

 

[Teddy2511]

Rabbits are more pleasant to process (not as stinky) and are easier too. No plucking involve, you just skin them.

If we go with a pen of broilers this year we will most likely send them away to get processed... How long/messy would it be to do one rabbit on your own?

All wire hanging cages in a single tier. I have two tiers with dropping boards below the top cages which need to be scraped. It takes very little effort, but if you have only one level you eliminate that chore.

I think would go with the two tiers and dropping board because of my limited space... I took a look at the pictures of your setup, and I was wondering how well the urine and droppings roll out the back? Does it ever get clogged up or do you ever experience the "ick" not going where it is suposed to go?

Rabbits are pretty weather resistant and a lean to or 2 or 3 sided shed can offer enough protection if placed in a sheltered area outside.

I have a hard time picturing my little dwarfs out in the cold, or maybe it's me that I can't quite see out there! Would they be okay in -8 degree cold? And if they are sheltered well enough can they hande 50 mph winds as well?

For the family to eat, rabbit is an aquired taste. The texture of the meat is very different from chicken and my family wont eat it if it is identifiable as rabbit

Both of my parents have eaten rabbit when they were younger, but it was wild rabbit and neither had a good experience. Is there a big difference in taste? Would it be possible to substitute rabbit for chicken without it being obvious?

One thing I was thinking about is to get a pair of fur rabbits and a meat doe, then eat the meat mutts at fryer age and grow out the purebreds for their coats.

I really like this idea... The best of both worlds and I get to have two breeds instead of one!

Dood wrote:My nest boxes hang over the door to the cages, so they dont take up cage space, and they are 20 long by 10 high and 10 wide for my American Chinchillas and New Zealand crosses.Whoah! Have you posted pics of this?!?

I would love to see pictures too!

Thank you for all the information! I thinkI may have to reread it all over again 1 more time... 2 more times... 10 more times! I am really intrigued by the idea of raising for meat, but I think I'll try going with MSD's suggestion and try finding a breeder with some rabbit that the family and I can try out first!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I took a look at the pictures of your setup, and I was wondering how well the urine and droppings roll out the back?

My boards don't have enough of a slant for the poop to roll down, but there is no problem with the urine.

I made a scraper using some scrap from the dropping boards and mounted it to a handle, and I just scrape the boards daily. I can go several days without doing it if I want- but I never allow it to build up so much that the mounds of poop get near the floor wire.

Once or twice a month I also scrub the boards down with a cobweb brush dipped in water and dish soap.

The top cages are 30" deep and the bottom row is 24" deep, so there is plenty of room for the waste to fall between the cages. The back of the dropping boards extend past the bottom tier so the waste can't fall on the cages below.

Both of my parents have eaten rabbit when they were younger, but it was wild rabbit and neither had a good experience. Is there a big difference in taste? Would it be possible to substitute rabbit for chicken without it being obvious?

I have only eaten one wild rabbit and that was over ten years ago, so I don't remember much about it. But we liked it.

I hear that wild rabbit does taste different, and the meat is dark, not white like domestic rabbit.

Rabbit works well in any chicken recipe.

 

[3mina]

I have a hard time picturing my little dwarfs out in the cold, or maybe it's me that I can't quite see out there! Would they be okay in -8 degree cold? And if they are sheltered well enough can they hande 50 mph winds as well?

I keep Rex, in Canada, outside, in all wire cages without extra bedding other than a resting board. Over this winter and last they were either in an unheated three sided shed or in a 10 hole bank of cages with just a roof to keep the snow off or an uheated garden shed. As long as they are out of drafts and stay dry they are fine.
I recommend if your going to move the rabbits outside do it in the spring as soon as it stops freezing at night so they can get used to weather and they'll have a whole year to get ready for winter.

 

[Zab]

Just wanted to say welcome

Have you concidered a colony? I read about the 12x12' section you mentioned.
If you want to control the breeding you could keep the buck(s) in a cage above the colony floor. If it would be difficult to tell the kits heritage apart from breed only, I think it could be possible to put the does nto cages for kindling and so.

Just an idea, it's of course your decision

 

[Teddy2511]

Just wanted to say welcome

Thank you!

Have you concidered a colony?

Yes, I did consider a colony type plan, but I would only do that for my meat or fur rabbits, and I haven't decided yet if my family and I want to do rabbit meat... Otherwise the colony idea does sound quite appealing in some ways.


Well it sounds like the rabbits can handle the cold just fine... But since they do not handle heat well, how do you keep a 3 sided shed cool on a hot day?

 

[3mina]

Frozen water bottles and ceramic tiles

 

[Dood]

Remove the sides in the summer and just have a roof for shade and elements.

 

[3mina]

Unless you've got a pole shed then you're stuck with walls.
If you get local rabbits that have been raised the same sort of way you're going to, do what the breeder you get them from does til you get the hang of it and are confident in changing things up. Heat is an issue if temps are going up or down suddenly or if it stays up in the high 90s or into the 100s for over a week say. Honestly, it's not as involved as it seems.

 

[skysthelimit]

Beverens, Silver Fox, Champagne and Creme d'Argents, American Chinchilla, Satin, and Rex

Most of these breeds are show stock now a days, so growth rate and feed converion is not a priority in selecting breeding stock. Ask around and you may find a breeder who focuses on both. Your best bet for meat is probably the Am Chin as they are more of a meat rabbit than fur, but any rabbit can be eaten so pick something you like.

As usual I beg to differ. If you don't show you can't possibly know this. Actually the faster they grow the better it is for the show table. There is always a plan to get the consistently faster growers, I've culled most of my herd that did not reach expected weights, and after years of my Rex breeder selecting traits, we now have a chin doe that reached the top end of jr weight (4-6lb) at 12 weeks.

And still most Silver Fox are bred by meat breeders in there own back yard, without them, the breed would have never survived, after it fell out of favor with processors. Silver Fox have the best meat to bone ratio and feed conversion second to none, study proven. My Silver Fox were 5lbs at 7 1/2 weeks.

I hate when people make the assumption that "show" meat breeds are only bred to look pretty. The SOP is for all pure bred rabbits, and show rabbits must meet a required weight or get bounced off the table. If they don't have good meat qualities they don't do well on the table, and nobody wants something that won't breed and produce good litters. Good milkers produce bigger, faster growing kits.

Now you are not going to get super fast growing NZ no matter where you get them from, unless you get them from a serious commercial breeder, but if you are looking for some for a home operation, it's a breeder to breeder thing, so don't blow show breeders off. You have to tell them what you want, so they can tell you if their stock can fit your needs.

 

[3mina]

Thanks sky's, that's the best description I've had of show breeding goals, I think, ever

 

[Teddy2511]

Thank you sky, I appreciate the information! I think I'll just look for breeders of the breeds I want then, and I'll find out from them what their rabbits have been bred for and how they are producing.

If I had to choose my breed of choice, I really love the Beverens and Silver Fox is a very close second, but unfortunately there are no breeders anywhere near me for either breed (not even in the surrounding states)! At this rate, I may not ending up finding any rabbits from the breeds I want anyway.

__________ Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:57 pm __________

Unless you've got a pole shed then you're stuck with walls. If you get local rabbits that have been raised the same sort of way you're going to, do what the breeder you get them from does til you get the hang of it and are confident in changing things up. Heat is an issue if temps are going up or down suddenly or if it stays up in the high 90s or into the 100s for over a week say. Honestly, it's not as involved as it seems.

From the looks of things, I think I will be using a shed with 4 permenant walls, so taking down the walls is not an option... We do get some strong wind where we live, so would a set up with windows and screen doors so that the wind can blow right through be a good option? I also thought maybe a couple of fans?

 

[3mina]

Using the wind for ventalation would be nicely inexpensive, always a good thing and fans are a must for pretty much any set up. I would suggest a roof vent, I think they're called whirligigs here, the spinning ones at any rate for a windy area.
Are there any shows fairly close to you? That would be my first choice for finding stock, you get to see lots and make a ton of contacts.

 

[Teddy2511]

Are there any shows fairly close to you? That would be my first choice for finding stock, you get to see lots and make a ton of contacts.

There aren't many shows in my area that I know of... I was doing some looking and research, but the closest one was about an hour and a half's drive from my place, and during a week when I won't be available to drive out there. It may be a while until I get to go to a show, but I do look forward to finding a chance seeing one and meeting other bunny people! (And seeing all the bunnies!)

 

[MamaSheepdog]

the closest one was about an hour and a half's drive from my place, and during a week when I won't be available to drive out there.

I would consider that to be really close. I have to drive at least two to three hours for all but the most local show, which is about an hour away. But we have to drive an hour just to go grocery shopping, so a two hour drive is no big deal to me.

Keep checking the ARBA website for show listings. Some clubs post way in advance, but others do not.

 

[3mina]

Check the ARBA site for show dates and clubs. Our club puts on about six shows a year and I don't know that they are on the ARBA site at all since we're in Canada and rather isolated as far as showing distances go.
Most of our shows are within two hours of Edmonton in order to make sure members can get to them, they're spread around so everybody has to drive at least a little. We have members throughout the province.

 

[Teddy2511]

I would consider that to be really close. I have to drive at least two to three hours for all but the most local show, which is about an hour away. But we have to drive an hour just to go grocery shopping, so a two hour drive is no big deal to me.

I would gladly drive an hour and half if it was just me, but I don't have my own car and an hour and a half is pretty far compared to our 20 minute trips to town. I'll keep on checking the ARBA website, and just hope for one close by, or see ifI can arrange a a trip one of these times.