First time mom, lost 3 kits

[freelady96]

I have two first time mom sisters. Both kindled same day. One with 5 doing great. Other one kindled 8. All looked much smaller than the doe with 5. Each day one or two looked malnourished. I would hold mamma on back to nurse two or three of the smallest ones. It didnt look like they were getting any milk and I'd hold her to nurse like 10 min. Her teats had red tips, but otherwise looked normal. One by one they started getting so weak, they died. Do you think they were deformed in some way they couldnt nurse, or did moms milk not let down. The rest look okay for now, full looking bellies but are significantly smaller than the other litter. They are now 2 weeks old. I'm sure I've stressed momma out holding her down. Any advise as to what's going on? Thanks

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

It's not uncommon for first time Does to not have successful or fully formed litters

Two weeks old is probably old enough to start giving them pellets or whatever solid food you use
You could also try removing their nest box for a few hours in a safe place and putting the least fed ones back in with her first

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have two first time mom sisters. Both kindled same day. One with 5 doing great. Other one kindled 8. All looked much smaller than the doe with 5. Each day one or two looked malnourished. I would hold mamma on back to nurse two or three of the smallest ones. It didnt look like they were getting any milk and I'd hold her to nurse like 10 min. Her teats had red tips, but otherwise looked normal. One by one they started getting so weak, they died. Do you think they were deformed in some way they couldnt nurse, or did moms milk not let down. The rest look okay for now, full looking bellies but are significantly smaller than the other litter. They are now 2 weeks old. I'm sure I've stressed momma out holding her down. Any advise as to what's going on? Thanks

What breed are these rabbits? Eight sounds like an unusually big litter for dwarfs, but if they are a dwarf breed, you might be dealing with peanuts.

Kits from a large litter are generally smaller than those from a bigger litter, so the size difference is not too surprising. Usually they catch up by weaning. Eight is not an especially large litter (for full-size rabbits), so if a couple of them didn't make it, it could have just been something not quite right with them. If the rest have full bellies, it's not likely that there's anything seriously wrong with the dam.

I tend to avoid holding the doe down on the kits, or flipping her over on her back; I've had kits seriously injured that way, and it really stresses the doe. If there are a couple of kits that are lagging behind the others, removing the bigger kits for one feeding (not an enforced feeding), as @RabbitsOfTheCreek suggests, will sometimes allow them to catch up.

I'd agree also with putting some clean hay and a few pellets into the nest box, to encourage hungry bunnies to start to eat those things, although at two weeks of age they definitely still need to nurse. But if a few of the kits aren't eating well, and the doe is feeding the rest, I just figure that sometimes the doe knows something I don't. Although breeder selection has improved the tendency of domestic rabbits to have and raise big litters, not all the babies of prey species can be expected to live. And as @RabbitsOfTheCreek points out, sometimes it takes a litter or two for a doe to come into her own, in terms of raising bunnies.

 

[freelady96]

What breed are these rabbits? Eight sounds like an unusually big litter for dwarfs, but if they are a dwarf breed, you might be dealing with peanuts.

Kits from a large litter are generally smaller than those from a bigger litter, so the size difference is not too surprising. Usually they catch up by weaning. Eight is not an especially large litter (for full-size rabbits), so if a couple of them didn't make it, it could have just been something not quite right with them. If the rest have full bellies, it's not likely that there's anything seriously wrong with the dam.

I tend to avoid holding the doe down on the kits, or flipping her over on her back; I've had kits seriously injured that way, and it really stresses the doe. If there are a couple of kits that are lagging behind the others, removing the bigger kits for one feeding (not an enforced feeding), as @RabbitsOfTheCreek suggests, will sometimes allow them to catch up.

I'd agree also with putting some clean hay and a few pellets into the nest box, to encourage hungry bunnies to start to eat those things, although at two weeks of age they definitely still need to nurse. But if a few of the kits aren't eating well, and the doe is feeding the rest, I just figure that sometimes the doe knows something I don't. Although breeder selection has improved the tendency of domestic rabbits to have and raise big litters, not all the babies of prey species can be expected to live. And as @RabbitsOfTheCreek points out, sometimes it takes a litter or two for a doe to come into her own, in terms of raising bunnies.

These are California s
I'll try to post a comparison picture later. All of them are too small to take away.
I couldn't keep the dam still enough on her back yesterday, so I'm done with that. It was probably stressful. Wondering if they all fail to gain weight, I could give them all to her sister dam, which would be 10.

 

[freelady96]

What breed are these rabbits? Eight sounds like an unusually big litter for dwarfs, but if they are a dwarf breed, you might be dealing with peanuts.

Kits from a large litter are generally smaller than those from a bigger litter, so the size difference is not too surprising. Usually they catch up by weaning. Eight is not an especially large litter (for full-size rabbits), so if a couple of them didn't make it, it could have just been something not quite right with them. If the rest have full bellies, it's not likely that there's anything seriously wrong with the dam.

I tend to avoid holding the doe down on the kits, or flipping her over on her back; I've had kits seriously injured that way, and it really stresses the doe. If there are a couple of kits that are lagging behind the others, removing the bigger kits for one feeding (not an enforced feeding), as @RabbitsOfTheCreek suggests, will sometimes allow them to catch up.

I'd agree also with putting some clean hay and a few pellets into the nest box, to encourage hungry bunnies to start to eat those things, although at two weeks of age they definitely still need to nurse. But if a few of the kits aren't eating well, and the doe is feeding the rest, I just figure that sometimes the doe knows something I don't. Although breeder selection has improved the tendency of domestic rabbits to have and raise big litters, not all the babies of prey species can be expected to live. And as @RabbitsOfTheCreek points out, sometimes it takes a litter or two for a doe to come into her own, in terms of raising bunnies.

the kit on the right is 6hrs older than kit on the left from a different litter. Both are 15 days old. Right back leg is not moving in same motion as other legs.
Kit on left 6.8 oz kit on right 4.2 oz.
All skinny kits are in the 4oz range.

 

[Alaska Satin]

the kit on the right is 6hrs older than kit on the left from a different litter. Both are 15 days old. Right back leg is not moving in same motion as other legs.
Kit on left 6.8 oz kit on right 4.2 oz.
All skinny kits are in the 4oz range.

Yes, that kit certainly appears to be not getting enough to eat, though it's obviously getting something since it's still alive. But the size difference, the sunken sides, and the frosting of the coat (which can happen when Californian/himalayan kits are chilled, among other things) suggest malnutrition or other neglect.

I might pick the largest/strongest two and try to foster them to the sister; maybe give them one day with the smallest three in the sister's litter, so the new guys don't have to compete with all eight at their first feeding, then let them fend for themselves. I wouldn't mess with forcing either doe, as in my experience, that can cause more problems than it solves.

If they all have problems moving correctly, I might let nature take its course rather than fostering any of them. I wouldn't want to spread some sort of pathogen to the healthy nest. Like I said, sometimes the dams seem to know something we don't.

If it was me, I'd just leave the rest (or all of them) with their dam and hope they can catch up. I'd give the doe another try, but be pretty critical about her performance. Californians are usually superb mothers, so if this doe isn't, I wouldn't keep her any longer than I had to (and if that's the case, I wouldn't keep any of her kits).

The other option is to try to supplement the apparently starving kits. Leave them with the dam but 1-2x a day, syringe feed them about a mL (or more, if they'll take it) of Esbilac goat milk puppy formula, kitten formula, or raw goat milk if you have it. It takes most bunnies a time or two to figure out that goodness comes from the syringe, and some fight it longer than others, but it might be worth a try, if you have time to spare. We've helped save bunnies at this age this way, although sometimes only half of them made it (some were apparently too far gone to rally). I don't usually do this since I want to have rabbits that are healthy without intervention, but sometimes something happens that isn't the rabbits' fault.

 

[freelady96]

Yes, that kit certainly appears to be not getting enough to eat, though it's obviously getting something since it's still alive. But the size difference, the sunken sides, and the frosting of the coat (which can happen when Californian/himalayan kits are chilled, among other things) suggest malnutrition or other neglect.

I might pick the largest/strongest two and try to foster them to the sister; maybe give them one day with the smallest three in the sister's litter, so the new guys don't have to compete with all eight at their first feeding, then let them fend for themselves. I wouldn't mess with forcing either doe, as in my experience, that can cause more problems than it solves.

If they all have problems moving correctly, I might let nature take its course rather than fostering any of them. I wouldn't want to spread some sort of pathogen to the healthy nest. Like I said, sometimes the dams seem to know something we don't.

If it was me, I'd just leave the rest (or all of them) with their dam and hope they can catch up. I'd give the doe another try, but be pretty critical about her performance. Californians are usually superb mothers, so if this doe isn't, I wouldn't keep her any longer than I had to (and if that's the case, I wouldn't keep any of her kits).

The other option is to try to supplement the apparently starving kits. Leave them with the dam but 1-2x a day, syringe feed them about a mL (or more, if they'll take it) of Esbilac goat milk puppy formula, kitten formula, or raw goat milk if you have it. It takes most bunnies a time or two to figure out that goodness comes from the syringe, and some fight it longer than others, but it might be worth a try, if you have time to spare. We've helped save bunnies at this age this way, although sometimes only half of them made it (some were apparently too far gone to rally). I don't usually do this since I want to have rabbits that are healthy without intervention, but sometimes something happens that isn't the rabbits' fault.

I have access to raw goats milk. Do I put egg yolk and corn syrup in it?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have access to raw goats milk. Do I put egg yolk and corn syrup in it?

I've never added anything other than NutriDrops for rabbits. Goat milk isn't exactly the same in terms of fat and calories as rabbit milk, but you can assume they're getting some milk from the dam, or they would all be dead already. I'd just try to supplement them, not raise them entirely on goat milk.

Some folks add other things when they're hand-rearing bunnies. I'm not a fan of corn syrup, because although the sugar in it is energy, rabbits and sugar don't usually go together very well.

 

[freelady96]

I have access to raw goats milk. Do I put egg yolk and corn syrup in it?

I wasnt able to get the goats milk. I'm just going to let nature take it course. Hope for the best.