filling in the blanks (genotypes)

[gulien]

My quest to understand colour genetics is ongoing, and I appreciate the greater wisdom of our members! I am interested in working out the genotypes of my past and present herd, to better predict future results (I'm aiming for chinchillas). So here's what we have so far:

Orchid (chestnut agouti) X Poppa (chinchilla) = (chestnut agouti) + REW/grey points + Moose (chinchilla)
Aa Bb Cch Dd E_ Aa Bb chd__ Dd E_ A_ B_ C_ D_ E_ aa bb ch__ dd E_ Aa B_ chd __ D_ E_


next generation:

Moose (chinchila) X Squeak (chinchilla) = chinchilla + self chin (?) + REW (?)
Aa B_ chd__ D_ E_ Aa B_ chd__ D_ E_ A_ B_ chd__ D_ E_ aa B_ cchd_ D_ E_


The above kits are 9 days old today, so I'm not sure if the white ones will be REWs or develop points yet. One of the self chins has the agouti eye circles, etc, but all in shades of grey. I put ch in Orchid's type, as I believe her dam was a tort.

Thanks guys!

 

[Dood]

Pictures would be helpful as this

One of the self chins has the agouti eye circles, etc,

is not possible given the genotypes. This colour sounds like silver tipped steel AKA steel chinchilla and since it is a dominant trait, one of the parents must look like a variety of steel.

I am not sure what colour you think this kit from Moose and Squeak is

aa bb ch__ dd E_

? A lilac himilayan is HIGHLY unlikely. The genotype for any himilayan (red eyed pointed white/Californian) is __ __ ch_ __ __ unless we know what the parents gave to them or by their offspring.

Because chinchilla coloured rabbits are mostly made by dominant genes the blanks may never get filled unless you get some unexpected colours like frosty, chocolate chin or squirrel or is they have self based kits.

 

[Zass]

Everything is written up rather confusingly. I'm having a hard time making sense of it.
Adding pics would help identify colors, and thus genotypes

 

[akane]

You can tell the points of a black himi from a chocolate and especially a lilac. More likely it's a blue than a lilac though. You can also see nonextension through improper pattern.

The problem I see is you cannot get that combination of colors from 2 full colors. You could get himi if both carried himi/rew or you could get chin if one carried chin and one carried any other c locus gene besides full color. You can't get full color, himi, and chin from 2 full color rabbits. One of them is the wrong color or the chinchilla offspring is not a chinchilla.

 

[gulien]

Sorry that my post was confusing, I had it nicely formatted, but when it actually posted it was all run together.

I will get some pics and repost

__________ Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:26 pm __________

Sorry for the delay, I have no internet access at home, so posting pics is a multi-step process. Let's try this again:



The Offspring:



Two of the above, 4 chestnut agoutis, 2 chins; and 2 darker chins with very fine, lustrous fur (Moose is one of these). Culled all except Moose.




Finally, I found an actual satin doe!

I've hit my pic limit for this post, will post pics of Moose x Squeak pairing immediately below. <br /><br /> __________ Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:38 pm __________ <br /><br /> Moose (A_B_ch3_D_E_ ..?) x Squeak (A_B_ch3_D_E_ ...?):

2 REWs (no coloured points yet, at 18 days old), and 2 self black (self chin?):



and these 4 ... gold tipped steels (?):



3 are lighter in colour, but have gold ticking too. It was hard to get good exposure and all 4 kits in the pic, as they moved about so much! :rabbit-hop2: :rabbit-hop3: :rabbit-hop1:

 

[akane]

Something is odd about the color of that first buck. Maybe it's the satin or maybe it's just an odd chinchilla but it doesn't look right for a chin. Mainly there are dark points. Chins are not pointed.

A rew does not have points. It has to be a himi. If both the original pair carried himi or 1 himi and 1 rew you could get a A-B-D-chd ch E- for moose which is a chin carrying himi, himis, and full colors (most likely chestnut). However crossing A-B-D- chd ch E- with another chin that you are claiming the satin doe is you would get chin, light and dark, and possibly sable, himi, rew. Chestnut would be impossible. That doe doesn't look like a proper chin either.

 

[gulien]

Akane, I know a REW doesn't have points, I was just trying to describe it's appearance since I am not sure how to pin down the correct colour. Sorry for confusing you by trying not to confuse you, lol :-?

Hmm, I see what you mean by dark points on the original buck ...never noticed that before... It could be the exposure, but I'll go home and take a good look at him. He has grey/blue eyes, if that helps.

Moose has his father's eyes as well.

The original doe MAY be REW x tort (of some sort). The dam was reddish with darker points. The buck's parentage is not known, but many people have assured me that his breeder is known for quality.

In the second pairing, the doe (Squeak) is supposed to be REW x broken B/W. There were no chestnuts(like granddam Orchid) in the Moose x Squeak litter. 2 that appear solid black, 2 REWs, and 4 with Agouti pattern. Of those 4, one is very dark,black even, with golden ticking. The other 3 are shades of grey with lighter gold ticking.

If anybody's wondering why I kept a buck, I got 1 female and 9 males in the original litter, and she was chestnut! I liked him, so I've let him hang around for a bit, it's hard to find standard satins locally, and even harder to find chins :|

 

[akane]

The agoutis are what I mean. They look like chestnuts and whether they are steel or not doesn't really matter because you cannot get a full color with chestnut or steel markings out of 2 chinchillas.

 

[skysthelimit]

They look like chestnuts and whether they are steel or not doesn't really matter because you cannot get a full color with chestnut or steel markings out of 2 chinchillas.

Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. The chins look odd. The first Mouse x Squeek picture was fine, but then the agouti marked full color kits? That should be genetically impossible. I keep thinking there is something affecting those chins, but I can't think of anything that would make an agouti look like a chin, but have full color kits.

 

[Dood]

I think Squeak is a silver tipped steel /steel chin as her lacings and belly are not white but slate blue.

The one kit is definitly chestnut, the other 3 could be smutty chinchillas but it is hard to tell form the picture. It is impossible for two chinchillas to have chestnut kits - could she have been bred by another buck?

 

[akane]

I did come across a couple pictures of satin chins and they are much darker than normal furred chins. They almost look like silver martens but with ticking. I still can't account for the dark points unless this is a very dark version of chl instead of chd. I'm pretty sure squeak is not a chin. I just don't know what she would be. The satin fur may again be throwing the color off and the shine makes it hard to see any ticking or not. Kind of looks chocolate and I would say chocolate otter or chocolate agouti but pictures of coppers are rather chocolate/brown looking compared to regular chestnuts.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/doublehrab ... color.html

 

[gulien]

I think the satin fur is throwing things off. It's hard to get a good pic that shows the lovely depth of colour accurately. I had a closer look at poppa's "himi" markings, and its a trick of light and shadow.

Will anybody be going to the show in Meaford on may 10? I was thinking of dragging the whole family there, and you could see them in person and in natural light. <br /><br /> __________ Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:02 pm __________ <br /><br /> Nope, only exposed to one buck, and kindled right on time. Only way another buck could have gotten her is if my black otter mini Rex has learned to teleport, LOL. He never got to her, but he did spend. Lot of time looking longingly.

 

[Zass]

I think Squeak is kinda odd colored. Any chance to get belly and top pics of her?

 

[Dood]

I think I see some brown fringe on Moose - could he be an otter instead of Chinchilla? That would accout for the chestunt kits

 

[gulien]

I'll take some more pics of Moose, Squeak and Poppa; showing markings and rings. It will take a few days to get back here, though.