Figuring up Protein, etc

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PulpFaction

PulpFaction

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Ok, so Alfalfa Hay is not readily available around here. Hate to do it, but I picked up a bag of Alfalfa Pellets just to see if the rabbits would eat it. Problem is, even the alfalfa pellets are only 13% protein. The oats I feed are 11.5% protein. SO, I am supplementing with Calf Manna to up the protein level. I'm kind of starting to wonder what the point is. Might I just as well feed pellets if I'm feeding calf manna and alfalfa pellets?

Anyway, does anyone else spend a great deal of time trying to calculate the protein in their mixes?

Could someone that is better at math help me out here?

I am actually using the information I found on a chicken feed site to calculate thing. Pearson's square, etc:

http://www.lionsgrip.com/protein.html

So...

Grain Mix:

Oats 11.5% protein 1 parts
Alfalfa Pellets 13% protein 1 parts
Total 12.25%

1.75 Parts Calf Manna
3 Part Grain Mix
16% total protein

They're also getting mineral blocks, timothy hay, and a little bit of BOSS, which is 16% protein and 40% fat. I feed lots of good weeds in the summer...but everything's under snow now so they aren't getting huge amounts of greens.

Is this ridiculous? Is there ANYTHING else I can use to up the protein significantly? I hate using the calf manna, it has the soy and corn I was hoping to avoid.
 
I would go with pellets, if you can find a decent quality one. Seems alot of hassel to still get soy and corn, anyways. Too bad you cant find alfalfa. Does alfalfa grow up there? maybe you could plant your own?
 
Shara":2oln5xnn said:
I would go with pellets, if you can find a decent quality one. Seems alot of hassel to still get soy and corn, anyways. Too bad you cant find alfalfa. Does alfalfa grow up there? maybe you could plant your own?
Click to expand...

I do not believe Alfalfa grows locally here. It is sometimes available shipped in from out of state, but is VERY expensive and generally they try to sell it in bulk and I don't have the storage room.

I was feeding Manna Pro Sho with good results, but there has been a recent scare with the Manna Pro layer pellets for the chickens and I would really like to get off Manna Pro products completely, but I can't figure out how to get around the Calf Manna....
 
I can't grow alfalfa here either--too wet. I have been experimenting with comfrey. So far the leaves are not "choice" in my rabbits opinion, but they do eat them. And the chickens go nuts for them. I have dried some to try as hay, I'll let you know how it is recieved!

Here is further info about comfrey as forage crop, I think it is much more cold tolerant than alfalfa.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/comfrey.html
 
Why create a problem for yourself?
It has taken a lot of research and many years to perfect/create
the properly balanced diet for rabbits.
This is what you have available to you in a quality Pelleted Rabbit feed.
I would go with the Pelleted Rabbit feed. You can get: 16%, 17% or 18%
one of them has got to fit your needs and you will have more quality time
to spend with your charges.
Ottersatin.
 
Dennis you bring up a good point--My purpose in feeding other-than-pellets was a "use what you have" approach and to keep from spending money on dehydrated feed whilst STEPPING OVER an amazing quantity of lovely free feed on the way to scoop the pellets.

I would pull stuff up, put it on the compost heap, and then go get some pellets, complain about the price, throw more "weeds" on the compost heap, complain about turning it...:slap: The complimentary systems were already there, just waiting for me to connect the dots.

I don't have guilt about using pellets when I want to though...And with feet of snow between you and that lovely free feed, well, neither should you. Heck, on particularly busy/rainy days, I dip into my hay and pellets even when I am overflowing with fresh stuff. That is what it's there for, right? TV dinners for the bunnies!


Ok, I shouldn't have used that last line--It was meant as a joke, "TV dinners, the answer for the lazy cook" not "TV dinners, the nasty and nutritionally inadequate" Bad analogy, sorry. I just don't always feel like balancing my own rabbit ration and then I am perfectly comfortable using pellets and hay.
 
I do not consider pelleted rabbit feed "TV dinners for bunnies"
I consider pelleted rabbit feed as prepared balanced nutrition for the rabbit.
Any other items that you add to the rabbits feed regimen should be considered
a treat and fed as such. The things that you add have the ability to upset that balance of nutrition.
I am not saying that one should not add other items to the rabbits diet,
but one should observe and take not of any difference in the rabbits condition.
I give my rabbits Comfrey on occasion, I mix Black oils and sweet feed with
my rabbits daily ration. Whatever works for you is the proper choice for you and YOUR herd.
Nobody but you, the owner/herdsman know exactly what is best for your rabbits.
Most things that I post are "in general" or what works in a majority of situations.
I do what I do because it works for me, which in my opinion
is what each breeder/rabbit owner should do.
We all make choices each and every day. We are not stuck in those choices, so,
should we find that we have made a mistake, we can always turn back a page and regroup.
Ottersatin
 
Im having difficulty getting more protein into Pie's diet. He did not like the alfalfa pellets I purchased for him last week (they were 17% protein)- he wouldnt touch them and literally stopped eating all-together when I gave them to him. He loves his Timothy-based pellet feed, but its only 13%. We are back on Timothy pellets.
Should I give him Alfala hay instead of Timothy hay?
How else can I put protein into his diet?
 
Pickles,
what brand of Alfalfa based pellet were you using?
Sometimes rabbits who are finicky by nature
may just not like a particular feed/brand.
I woulkd try a few more different brands
before going to a timothy based pellet.
You could add some Black oil Sunflower seeds, Sweet-feed
and rolled Oats to the mix.
Ottersatin.
 
There are many reasons why people may prefer not to feed commercial pelleted feed to their rabbits and the main idea of this forum is to discuss ways and means to meet the challenges of natural feeding.

We know it is possible, since people have been raising rabbits for thousands of years and it is only in the past sixty or so years that pelleted food has been available. Unfortunately, much information has been lost since then and we are only beginning to reassemble a body of knowledge about how rabbits were fed in the past.

Sufficient protein is always the most difficult aspect of natural feeding and it is particularly difficult for people living in areas where alfalfa is scarce or expensive. It is good to see such plants as comfrey being mentioned. Willow, poplar and mulberry leaves are also high protein feeds comparable to alfalfa in protein content and these can be dried easily for winter feeding. We are blessed with a huge weeping willow tree; whenever we prune the tree or when the winds bring down branches, we harvest all we can for the rabbits. It just makes good sense to use what we have available.

Many of the people on the various rabbit forums come from a homesteading perspective, and natural feeding has a special appeal to them. It is best suited to the small backyard rabbitry because of the extra work involved, but I believe it is work worth doing for those who have access to abundant gathered greens. In these hard times, many of us are looking to the past to provide methods that integrate various homesteading endeavours and provide sustainable methods for home production of at least some of our food.
 
I could not agree with you more Maggie!
As I stated: Whatever works for you is what is best.
I feed a good quality pelleted rabbit feed as the mainstay of
my herds diet. That does not mean that I do not feed or allow them
anything other than that pelleted feed. I just do it on occasion
or whenever the urge strikes me. The same as anyone else I would love to
and do strive to save a buck or two at every chance I get.
I even give my rabbits a Hay Day now and then.
I do keep a close eye on the amounts they are fed,
though Dams and kits always get full-feed.
I would love to have the time to gather and measure
all the amounts of items required to create a well balanced diet
without the use of pelleted rabbit feed. At this point I just don't
see it in the cards for me! To those who can, more power to you!
Ottersatin.
 
What if I can find another animal feed in textured form instead of pellet? I primarily want to avoid soy, which is difficult to get away from in any prepared feed. At least MannaPro doesn't have corn in it...(I was feeding COB, but switched to the straight oats.)

Also, I just checked another website similar to Craigslist but for Alaska. It looks like there are a couple of people that are getting ready to bring up some very good Alfalfa hay in the 24% protein range. The stuff is averaging $16-$17.50 per square bale. How much of this can I expect the rabbits to eat if they have whole grains available to them? Feeding whole grains and alfalfa is no more difficult for me than feeding pellets and timothy, but I need to make sure I can afford this!

Also, has anyone ever used fortified wild bird seed to add some vitamins and minerals? I looked yesterday and they are high in vitamins, about 9% protein, and relatively high in fats. I was thinking just a tiny bit of that might help replace some of the vitamins they should be getting in fresh foods. Nothing in the mix in and of itself should be harmful to rabbits, just a mix of grains and seeds. I would stop feeding BOSS by itself since all the mixes included some.
 
If you can get some alfalfa hay, you can feed it along with the timothy hay. You will want to make sure it gets eaten, not wasted, but even a moderate amount will help.

Field peas are a possible source of protein for rabbits.
Sprouted grain and seeds are another. These links have been posted before, but it will save you having to hunt for them. Don't be put off by some of the articles being geared towards birds rather than rabbits. The parrot folks seem to be way ahead of us on this! :)

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/as1224w.htm
http://www.themodernhomestead.us/article/Sprouting.html
http://www.parrotchronicles.com/feature ... edseed.htm
http://www.landofvos.com/articles/sprouts.html
 
I'm not sure birdseed has much useful nutrition for rabbits unless you are sprouting them. I would look more in to horse diets since rabbits are very similar in digestive function and the wild diet they evolved to eat. I fed mine pelleted horse feed for awhile until I found suitable rabbit pellets. Now that the feed store which was going to open nearby has been postponed 2 months I'm once again without pellets unless I drive back to the other city or feed that junk that starts with "grain by products, forage by products (what is that anyway...), maize" and I quit reading at that point. I was thinking of oats, boss, and alfalfa/clover/grass mix hay like we feed the horses over winter. I prefer to try to get away with no actual grains for my horses and feed BOSS and bulk whole flaxseed instead but prices aren't always good at the right time to do that.

Do you have other legume hay there? Alfalfa is just the most common but not the only legume high protein hay. Some others besides clover that I've heard of for horses are lespedeza, birdsfoot trefoil, vetch, soybean and cowpeas but since pretty much every inch of Iowa not devoted to corn/soybeans or beef cattle has a field of alfalfa I've never actually tried to find or seen most of those. Somewhere in my veterinary books is a chart of all the hays and common grains with average values at different cutting times but again having never seen another legume hay around but alfalfa and some clover I didn't pay much attention to the others.
 
I've decided to put the transition on hold for the time being. I realized it was kind of silly to be busting my butt so hard to piece together this diet when, really, they were doing fine so far on the pellets. Ideally, I do want to switch them over, but the dead of winter when I can't offer many greens and have limited access to the ingredients required is probably not the best time.

So, my routine is Timothy and oats in the morning, pellets at night. This is also the same routine my mentor followed, and the doe I was having trouble with seems to be doing well on her old routine, so far.
 
Hopefully, people on this forum are not as critical as the gardenwebforum -- I posted a link about some really cool software I had purchased to manage animals and some know it all with the handle oregonwoodsmoke decided to be a jerk and tell me I needed to do it manually and shouldn't be advertising. I didn't see it as an ad -- just trying to share. I just love people who think their way is the only way.

I found this site from garden web and had to post.

Local feed mills can be helpful and a lot cheaper.

We have 18 does and feed all the rabbits including kits a simple mix of corn and calf feed concentrate.

The concentrate is Baby Beef 34 (made by Kent Feeds) and it is mixed with corn to make a 16% protein feed -- about $6.50 per 50lbs of feed. The feed was made by the mill to feed to the chickens, goats, and rabbits. I didn't want to be buying this bag and that bag. Keep it simple.

The rabbits are fed a variety of hay including alfalfa, clover, timothy and orchard grass. I keep the clover hay away from the goats because of fertility issues.

In the summer they eat corn stalks, and many weeds from the garden and they love thistle???

I found and old book about feeding chicken and rabbits on scraps online a while back and it was written about 1910, before commercial feed producers so the information was very useful

May want to double-check but I believe I've read that alfalfa hay is close to 18% and clover is closer to 15%
 
tagra123":rzcr4gm2 said:
Hopefully, people on this forum are not as critical as the gardenwebforum -- I posted a link about some really cool software I had purchased to manage animals and some know it all with the handle oregonwoodsmoke decided to be a jerk and tell me I needed to do it manually and shouldn't be advertising.
Click to expand...
Wonder what else he's smoking? No, folks here aren't like that.

We have 18 does and feed all the rabbits including kits a simple mix of corn and calf feed concentrate.
Click to expand...
I would be concerned about feeding rabbits that much corn. First of all, it's very high in sugar. Secondly, unless it's ground up, it can clog up their gut. Third, I would be concerned about the potential for aflotoxins.

If you're after simplicity, why not just feed pellets? (Personally, I follow Oren Reynolds' grain mix recipe from Bob Bennett's book, so I'm not feeding pellets, either, but I don't mind buying multiple bags and doing the mixing myself.)

The rabbits are fed a variety of hay including alfalfa, clover, timothy and orchard grass.
Click to expand...
That may be your saving grace right there.

I found and old book about feeding chicken and rabbits on scraps online a while back and it was written about 1910, before commercial feed producers so the information was very useful
Click to expand...
Sounds interesting. What book is it? I don't suppose it's still in print (or maybe available on Project Gutenberg)?
 
Welcome to Rabbittalk, Tagra123. :hi: You must have seen my post from earlier today over on the GW Farm Life Forum. :)

I'm glad you're having good success with the Baby Beef 34, but it does not sound to me like it qualifies as what we mean by "natural feeding", since it is processed. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but the main intent of this particular section of RabbitTalk is to discuss ways of using unprocessed foods: hay, grain, greens etc. No problem... just saying. :)

I switched my rabbits off pellets upon finding out that the brand I had been feeding contained animal tallow. This was several years ago now... but it was a tough trial and error to find out what works and what doesn't. I have been amazed by how many people want to feed their rabbits without processed feeds... hence this particular forum to discuss ways and means.

Like Trinity, I would like to know the title and author of the old time book on raising rabbits. Maybe I can track down a copy for myself!
 
Maggie, I didn't realize some pellets contain animal tallow!

This brings up another question. I have three does, two silver fox and a flemish, that are chicken yard bunnies. They get their pellets in a hidey-hole where the chickens can't find it, but they also eat all the scratch, boss, and mixed grains that I feed to the birds. They are in excellent condition! Better, even than my caged rabbits with closely monitored diets!

The chickens, however, need more protein and I was getting ready to get some fish meal to free feed until they get into better condition. The rabbits won't eat the fish meal, will they?
 
I know it's not 100% natural, but I found it acceptable for what we were doing. Actually, I had made some myself using roasted soybean and plain corn with a little molasses to make it taste better. The mill owner suggested the other and recommended it because of the minerals already included. I figure if it helps someone break away from $14.00 feed , well $6.50 isn't too bad even if it isn't exactly what I was originally after.

It seems practical because if I wasn't using it I would be buying commercial minerals to add. In the summer they get less "store bought" feed stuff anyway.

Personally I think I could get buy with straight hay. Many people feed goats 100% hay only. I made homemade hay racks for our rabbit cages that work very well out of left over cage wire. They take about 5 minutes to make and are great to have the hay available for the rabbits 24/7. Hay can be added without opening the cages.

I found the book, I think this is the same book on rabbit keeping I was talking about:

The title is Practical Rabbit Keeping -- Farmington

http://books.google.com/books?id=O-TbAA ... &q&f=false
 

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