Figuring out the genetic background of my rabbits

[BlueJay]

Okay, so I am trying to settle down the genetics of my current stock of meat rabbits (which is now fallen to two does, a buck and another one being bought soon) an find out what colors might I get with further breeding.

The first one we have is a broken black doe (though her undercoat is light). As far as I know the litter of this doe contained broken blacks and broken oranges. The father might have been an Charlie tricolor, though I am not 100% sure. This is the doe on my avatar.

Bred to a neighbor's Silver Fox rabbit (might have been silver tipped steel, it was over a year ago and the buck died from unknown reasons), this doe produced offspring that was black, gold tipped steel, broken black and Charlie black. One of the bucks that was "black" showed a quite chocolate color in sunlight, and developed a light underbelly.

This image doesn't quite show the chocolate tinge, but as I said it was noticeable only in direct sunlight. The buck eventually ended in the freezer, but not before he had an unplanned litter with his gold tipped steel littermate. The result was black, agouti, agouti himalayan and chocolate himalayan. All of them ended in the freezer except the agouti himi doe which I was planning to keep but found her dead one morning
The first doe was also bred to an Vienna marked agouti and ended with black, gold tipped steel, broken GTS and broken black.

The second doe is the Charlie kit from the first one's litter. Bred to the same VM agouti she produced Charlie black, Charlie Agouti, GTS and only one VM agouti.
The buck is an heavilly tipped GTS from litter Doe one x VM agouti.

As for the second buck, I am going to get it from my relative who the first doe comes from. There is a large chance it will be a broken or Charlie orange or red as I have visited his rabbitry quite a few time and there were plenty of reds/oranges. The big question is, what could I expect from a red/orange buck bred to both of my does? Is there any chance there would be tricolors if there is that Charlie tricolor buck back in the background of both of the does AND possibly the new buck? Are there any colors that might pop out that haven't in the previous litters of these does?
Thank you for any answers in advance

 

[alforddm]

Your mutts are kinda like mine. A bunch of color stuff going on.

The first one we have is a broken black doe (though her undercoat is light). As far as I know the litter of this doe contained broken blacks and broken oranges. The father might have been an Charlie tricolor, though I am not 100% sure. This is the doe on my avatar.

If her sire was the charlie tricolor she will carry harlequin (ej) and you know she carries broken (EN) anything else is just a guess. The buck she was bred to doesn't really help determine anything.

One of the bucks that was "black" showed a quite chocolate color in sunlight, and developed a light underbelly.

He looks like he is black to me. Blacks can have a chocolate tint to them if they become sun bleached or while they are molting. It's possible he was a masked steel and that could have contributed to some of his "funky" coloring.

The result was black, agouti, agouti himalayan and chocolate himalayan. All of them ended in the freezer except the agouti himi doe which I was planning to keep but found her dead one morning
The first doe was also bred to an Vienna marked agouti and ended with black, gold tipped steel, broken GTS and broken black.

The buck and doe both carried himi but whether they got it from your doe or the sire of the litter? You'll just have to test breed your doe to find out.

The first doe was also bred to an Vienna marked agouti and ended with black, gold tipped steel, broken GTS and broken black.

In order for the first doe to have produced a gold tipped steel when paired to an agouti she must be a masked GTS or a self GTS. It's not uncommon for Steel rabbits who carry non-extension or harlequin to be masked even if they also carry agouti. Unless the agouti was actually a lightly marked steel. Steel is such a pesky gene lol.

The second doe is the Charlie kit from the first one's litter. Bred to the same VM agouti she produced Charlie black, Charlie Agouti, GTS and only one VM agouti.

The doe is what is called a false charlie not a true charlie. A true charlie will have 100% broken, charlie, or booted offspring. It just means she has modifiers that increase her white.

This same thing goes for this doe, she is either a masked GTS, self steel, or the buck is a highly marked steel and not an agouti.

The big question is, what could I expect from a red/orange buck bred to both of my does? Is there any chance there would be tricolors if there is that Charlie tricolor buck back in the background of both of the does AND possibly the new buck? Are there any colors that might pop out that haven't in the previous litters of these does?

If you bred a red/orange buck to either of the does and got steels you would know that they are masked steels or self steels. Yes you could get tri colors if the first doe's sire was a tri even if there isn't tri in the orange bucks background but one of the would need to carry harlequin(ej) and the other non extension (e).

Of course there could be other colors pop out. Himi would be the most likely considering what you've already told and then REW since it's common in meat type rabbits but if both parents carry other recessives you never know what going to show up.

 

[Zass]

One of the bucks that was "black" showed a quite chocolate color in sunlight, and developed a light underbelly.

Sounds like a masked gold tipped steel to me. Steel can look anywhere from all black, to almost chestnut.

It is my firm belief that genetic EsEs, EsE, Esej, or Ese can all be visually masked steels.

If her sire was the charlie tricolor she will carry harlequin (ej)

You forgot, a visual harli can be either ejej, or eje. Any kits out of a tricolor will definitely have inherited one of those genes, and thus have at least ej OR e.

The presence of either gene in the background of your does might help explain the high incidence of dark steels.

Well, if there are brokens in a litter, you know the father is at least broken. Oranges in a litter indicates both the buck and doe had at least one copy of e.

Breeding orange ee back to the herd is a good way to see if the does have e or ej.

Charlie is a rabbit that has inherited two copies of the broken gene, genetically ENEN ... In order to see this in a litter, both parents need to be visually broken.

If kits are charlie marked but possessing only one copy of the gene, I think it's called a false charlie?

 

[alforddm]

You forgot, a visual harli can be either ejej, or eje. Any kits out of a tricolor will definitely have inherited one of those genes, and thus have at least ej OR e.

You're right I did forget about. Lol.

 

[BlueJay]

Thank you for answering

The buck and doe both carried himi but whether they got it from your doe or the sire of the litter?

The himi definitely came from the buck. He produced A LOT of them, as I recall mating him to an agouti resulted in 100% himi kits.

The doe is what is called a false charlie not a true charlie. A true charlie will have 100% broken, charlie, or booted offspring. It just means she has modifiers that increase her white.

I have been considering this, just wasn't sure how to know if she was a false or true one.

...or the buck is a highly marked steel and not an agouti.

Could easily be possible. We took our does to a neighbour who had that buck, and I didn't quite look if he was white-bellied or not :/

Charlie is a rabbit that has inherited two copies of the broken gene, genetically ENEN ... In order to see this in a litter, both parents need to be visually broken.

So my doe is definitely not Charlie... Does false Charlie act like ordinary broken (I mean can it produce different amounts of white on the kits) or will all of the kits be false Charlies?

 

[alforddm]

The himi definitely came from the buck. He produced A LOT of them, as I recall mating him to an agouti resulted in 100% himi kits.

No, If a himi is in the litter then the sire or dam has to carry himi and the other parent has to carry either himi or REW. I meant where any of the kits in the litter inherited it is in question. You won't know until you do a breeding to an animal that also carries a recessive at the C locus.

So my doe is definitely not Charlie... Does false Charlie act like ordinary broken (I mean can it produce different amounts of white on the kits) or will all of the kits be false Charlies?

Yes, I have a couple of false charlie does. Some of the broken kits have nice markings and some are more false charlies. I only have solid bucks. Part of it depends on what modifiers the bucks have.