Feeding alternative diet to Pellets?

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Whole oats, alfalfa pellets, and hay is not "horse feed" I'm talking you can't buy horse pellets and feed them as rabbit pellets. You also can't feed rabbit pellets to horses. Different nutrition needed.

Cats and dogs also have different nutritional needs, cats being the harder species to keep healthy due to not being ably to synthesize multiple vitamins and needing a higher protein diet plus more frequent meals than dogs.
Again you move the goal post. By our conversation you feed dry poison dog and cat food and pellets to your rabbits.
I feed meat to my dogs.
I feed whole oats to my rabbits
I feed hay to my rabbits
I feed alfalfa pellets to my rabbits
All of these items are cat and dog food or rabbit food. Oh and by the way rabbits are cat and dog food too.
You think these foods only come from a bag. None of my animals get store bought food, most of it is unhealthy for the animals.
Unfortunate that you can’t think beyond the store.
You are not an expert on nutrition.
Like I said in the beginning of this conversation, you do you and I do my way.
Good luck with your animals although I don’t think you have any, and are just a troll on this site.
 
Again you move the goal post. By our conversation you feed dry poison dog and cat food and pellets to your rabbits.
I feed meat to my dogs.
I feed whole oats to my rabbits
I feed hay to my rabbits
I feed alfalfa pellets to my rabbits
All of these items are cat and dog food or rabbit food. Oh and by the way rabbits are cat and dog food too.
You think these foods only come from a bag. None of my animals get store bought food, most of it is unhealthy for the animals.
Unfortunate that you can’t think beyond the store.
You are not an expert on nutrition.
Like I said in the beginning of this conversation, you do you and I do my way.
Good luck with your animals although I don’t think you have any, and are just a troll on this site.

A few things.
If none of your animals get store bought feed, where do you get your whole oats and alfalfa pellets?
As for rabbits being cat and dog food, sure for dogs, however they are too low in taurine to be a good diet for cats. Remember the things that cats can't synthesize that dogs can? Taurine is one of them and HAS to come from the diet and rabbits just don't have enough to keep a cat healthy without supplementation.

As for my not being an expert on nutrition, maybe, but where are your certifications? And I absolutely do have animals and research their nutritional needs. I have backed up every claim that I have made and you haven't backed up any of yours. In fact, you shared a link that proved MY point.
 
Ok,
There are things called farms and they grow things, imagine that eh.
I buy everything locally from farmers.

I know all about dogs and cats but yet you continue with the lecture.
Yes if you’re a person that buys dog or cat food from the store then yes. However dogs can eat cat food from the store but cats can’t eat dog food from the store because of the reasons you mentioned above.
But where your WRONG is you can feed both cats and dogs the same food if it is real carcass meat, offal including lungs and fresh green tripe.
It is only commercially processed pet poison(food) that you need to make the distinction. I also feed whole animals such as rabbits and others which are natural prey for cats and dogs.
The hair of the prey animals cleans the the teeth and gut of the predators or pet. The stomach and intestines contain all the other necessary vitamins and probiotics.
You’re out of your league and punching up in this arena.
I suggest you get off your couch and go to the country and see where food comes from. Oh it’s not from the store!, in case you’re wondering.
 
This whole thread is about an alternative diet to the store bought feed.
You have no idea where food comes from and it’s not the store.

I don’t care what you say what do ever, because you are clueless.
Lions dogs cats and wolves can be fed the same if you feed naturally.
Rabbits can eat a natural diet not from the store.
You have lost all credibility in this conversation because you have no clue that farms are the producers of healthy organic food for us and our animals.
So go back to Facebook and troll people there.
I don’t care what you have to say.
 
This whole thread is about an alternative diet to the store bought feed.
You have no idea where food comes from and it’s not the store.

I don’t care what you say what do ever, because you are clueless.
Lions dogs cats and wolves can be fed the same if you feed naturally.
Rabbits can eat a natural diet not from the store.
You have lost all credibility in this conversation because you have no clue that farms are the producers of healthy organic food for us and our animals.
So go back to Facebook and troll people there.
I don’t care what you have to say.
You know instead of having this whole argument, you could've just pressed the ignore button and not get this worked up
 
I've read that the kits can't eat anything but pellets and that feeding them fresh cuttings of anything will make them sick and possibly kill them. I do feed them hay along with the doe. This thread is right down my alley as I'm growing a sizable "rabbit pasture" and have access to blackberry cuttings and garden greens during the summer months. The rabbit pasture is a combination of orchard grass, timothy grass, oat grass, alfalfa, and clover. There are other native grasses (north central Idaho) growing in the pasture and are also fed. The adults LOVE the blackberry brambles! What I need to be clear about is what is okay for the growing kits. What I'm currently doing is giving the doe fresh cuttings of what I have in season, BOSS, whole oats, garden greens, and leaves, the hay we put up from our rabbit pasture either fresh or dried, and pellets. Once the kits start coming out of the nest and nibbling on the pellet feed, I stop adding the other feed for fear of making the kits sick. I'd rather not make this change but need some advice from those who have fed their does and kits the same feed from the moment the kits start eating what mom is eating.
 
You know instead of having this whole argument, you could've just pressed the ignore button and not get this worked
You can press it too
I've read that the kits can't eat anything but pellets and that feeding them fresh cuttings of anything will make them sick and possibly kill them. I do feed them hay along with the doe. This thread is right down my alley as I'm growing a sizable "rabbit pasture" and have access to blackberry cuttings and garden greens during the summer months. The rabbit pasture is a combination of orchard grass, timothy grass, oat grass, alfalfa, and clover. There are other native grasses (north central Idaho) growing in the pasture and are also fed. The adults LOVE the blackberry brambles! What I need to be clear about is what is okay for the growing kits. What I'm currently doing is giving the doe fresh cuttings of what I have in season, BOSS, whole oats, garden greens, and leaves, the hay we put up from our rabbit pasture either fresh or dried, and pellets. Once the kits start coming out of the nest and nibbling on the pellet feed, I stop adding the other feed for fear of making the kits sick. I'd rather not make this change but need some advice from those who have fed their does and kits the same feed from the moment the kits start eating what mom is eating.
My rabbits are free range and kits eat the exact same diet as adults. They are healthy and happy.
The only caution is in the spring when new grass emerges go slow when starting to feed it.. I also feed sprouted field peas the bunnies love them.

Now this is what I do, you make your own judgement.
 
You can press it too

My rabbits are free range and kits eat the exact same diet as adults. They are healthy and happy.
The only caution is in the spring when new grass emerges go slow when starting to feed it.. I also feed sprouted field peas the bunnies love them.

Now this is what I do, you make your own judgement.
Rabbit Warren Man:
Thank you for your very helpful reply! I fully understand your need to make sure I know this is what you do. That's exactly what makes this conversation so helpful and why I asked the question here. Gathering the experience from different rabbit folks, in my opinion, is what makes this forum unique and very valuable and sets it apart from places like FB. You are an expert for your rabbitry, someone else is the expert for theirs. The experts that recommend pellet feed are often part of the network that manufactures and sells that product. Some may not be. I asked my question because I am looking for different opinions from different rabbit owners like you who are feeding beyond the pellet option.

My experience going against the "expert" recommendations is in the raw diet I feed my dogs. I've been feeding that diet for 11 years with very positive results for my pack. Am I the expert? For my pack, I am. For the rest of the world, certainly not.

I value your experience and am especially grateful for your willingness to SHARE it!!
 
Rabbit Warren Man:
Thank you for your very helpful reply! I fully understand your need to make sure I know this is what you do. That's exactly what makes this conversation so helpful and why I asked the question here. Gathering the experience from different rabbit folks, in my opinion, is what makes this forum unique and very valuable and sets it apart from places like FB. You are an expert for your rabbitry, someone else is the expert for theirs. The experts that recommend pellet feed are often part of the network that manufactures and sells that product. Some may not be. I asked my question because I am looking for different opinions from different rabbit owners like you who are feeding beyond the pellet option.

My experience going against the "expert" recommendations is in the raw diet I feed my dogs. I've been feeding that diet for 11 years with very positive results for my pack. Am I the expert? For my pack, I am. For the rest of the world, certainly not.

I value your experience and am especially grateful for your willingness to SHARE it!!
Good to hear you feed raw. My dogs are fed the same way and have never eaten kibble.
The litters of German Shepherd pups I have had were all started raw at 3 weeks old. The moment the purée raw goes down for the first time all the little noses go up in the air and they go to the smell instinctively and go to town on it.
I did an experiment and put a bowl of kibble down and the bowl of purée meat heart liver none of the pups went to the kibble and this was a first time feeding.
Before the pups go to the new homes I do feed a kibble meat mix as I am generally pretty sure the new owners will feed that crap.
I like this platform and am happily you are getting value from it as am I.
 
You’re out of your league and punching up in this arena.
I suggest you get off your couch and go to the country and see where food comes from. Oh it’s not from the store!, in case you’re wondering.
I was originally asking a simple question since you stated as a fact that rabbits natural diet includes aspen and then you provided a link to Snowshoe Hare which are a different species and live on a different continent than our domestic breeds (since domestic rabbits are from Europe).

You're the one that hasn't backed up anything and hasn't answered questions posed. The person making the claim has the burden of proof (meaning if you state a "fact" you are liable to prove that it is correct rather than someone else having to prove that you are wrong) and I can back up everything I stated but you have not backed up any of yours.

And yes, I am aware food does not come from a store originally, I was honestly surprised that you had a local farm that makes alfalfa pellets. Had you said alfalfa hay I wouldn't have questioned that. But at least in my area, individual farms don't run pelletizers and that would at the very least come from a local grain mill or co-op which are both stores.
 
I was originally asking a simple question since you stated as a fact that rabbits natural diet includes aspen and then you provided a link to Snowshoe Hare which are a different species and live on a different continent than our domestic breeds (since domestic rabbits are from Europe).

You're the one that hasn't backed up anything and hasn't answered questions posed. The person making the claim has the burden of proof (meaning if you state a "fact" you are liable to prove that it is correct rather than someone else having to prove that you are wrong) and I can back up everything I stated but you have not backed up any of yours.

And yes, I am aware food does not come from a store originally, I was honestly surprised that you had a local farm that makes alfalfa pellets. Had you said alfalfa hay I wouldn't have questioned that. But at least in my area, individual farms don't run pelletizers and that would at the very least come from a local grain mill or co-op which are both stores.
Your hare comment - you didn’t read the article it says Rabbits and Hares.

Also I said my proof is that I feed Aspen and poplar and many other species of trees and shrubs.

I also said you do you and I will do my way many times throughout the conversation.

Then you went onto cats and dogs and again you were wrong, because you only think in terms of store bought feed, this thread is all about alternative food sources.

Let me ask you this- domestic cats, dogs and rabbits have been around for over a thousand years in some cases. Who went to the store to buy them food? Nobody but yet they survived and thrived, let that sink in!

I have a Pelletizer and make my own pellets. I not only pelltize alfalfa but hay as well because I can store it in bags. Also it stores well. I bought my pelletizer for 100$ on marketplace.

Alfalfa is not hay it is a legume or bean family.
Hay is grass and I did say I free feed hay Timothy80%/ alfalfa 20% mix.

You weren’t asking simple questions you giving statements and twisting words and being antagonistic.

I think we’re done and I hope you agree?
Have a great day eh!
 
Good to hear you feed raw. My dogs are fed the same way and have never eaten kibble.
The litters of German Shepherd pups I have had were all started raw at 3 weeks old. The moment the purée raw goes down for the first time all the little noses go up in the air and they go to the smell instinctively and go to town on it.
I did an experiment and put a bowl of kibble down and the bowl of purée meat heart liver none of the pups went to the kibble and this was a first time feeding.
Before the pups go to the new homes I do feed a kibble meat mix as I am generally pretty sure the new owners will feed that crap.
I like this platform and am happily you are getting value from it as am I.
I would have liked to see those puppies make their first food choice! What a testament to their preference. I see you have a pelletizer. I would love as much information on your experience using it as you care to give. I'm seriously considering purchasing one later this year.
 
I've read that the kits can't eat anything but pellets and that feeding them fresh cuttings of anything will make them sick and possibly kill them. I do feed them hay along with the doe. This thread is right down my alley as I'm growing a sizable "rabbit pasture" and have access to blackberry cuttings and garden greens during the summer months. The rabbit pasture is a combination of orchard grass, timothy grass, oat grass, alfalfa, and clover. There are other native grasses (north central Idaho) growing in the pasture and are also fed. The adults LOVE the blackberry brambles! What I need to be clear about is what is okay for the growing kits. What I'm currently doing is giving the doe fresh cuttings of what I have in season, BOSS, whole oats, garden greens, and leaves, the hay we put up from our rabbit pasture either fresh or dried, and pellets. Once the kits start coming out of the nest and nibbling on the pellet feed, I stop adding the other feed for fear of making the kits sick. I'd rather not make this change but need some advice from those who have fed their does and kits the same feed from the moment the kits start eating what mom is eating.
It's definitely not true that kits can't eat anything but pellets! In fact when confronted with weaning enteritis (the belly ache/bloating sometimes seen in weaning kits), the first thing most experienced breeders will suggest is removing pellets and providing only hay for a time. Sometimes pellets are just too rich for their little guts to process efficiently at first.

Basic rabbit digestive biology goes like this. Rabbits are what are called "hindgut fermenters," meaning they have a blind sac coming off their intestines called a cecum, which does the initial processing of the difficult-to-digest fibrous foods rabbits eat. In the cecum, newly eaten food is deposited and left to ferment; that fermentation releases the nutrients bound up in a herbivorous diet, and it is accomplished by a community of microorganisms that lives in the cecum. After the microorganisms ferment the food, it leaves the cecum and is passed out as "cecotropes" - those are the small, soft poops that look sort of like a cluster of tiny grapes. Usually the rabbit eats these ("coprophagy") and in that way retrieves the nutrients released by fermentation. It's analogous to a cow or goat chewing its cud. In fact if a rabbit is prevented from eating its cecotropes, it becomes malnourished. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but all this taken together suggests that a rabbit is completely dependent on the microorganisms in it cecum to survive.

As stated, the cecum holds a community of microorganisms, which included hundreds of species of anaerobic bacteria as well as low numbers of amoeboids, protozoans and yeasts. In a healthy rabbit there is a balance to the species composition which is maintained by an appropriate high-fiber, low-sugar diet. Certain dietary items feed certain microorganisms, and the rabbit's gut flora changes in response to changes in its diet. So it is that while rabbits can thrive on an incredibly wide variety of foods, quickly changing a rabbit's diet can make it sick when its community of microorganisms tries to adjust to "catch up" to its new diet. It is also why feeding rabbits too many sugary treats (fruit, carrots, etc.) can give it a bellyache: sugars especially feed the yeasts, which can proliferate and cause havoc by overtaking and replacing the more beneficial gut bacteria. Rabbits can handle a little of these, especially if they're allowed to adjust to the presence of these foods; you just have to be vigilant to allow the cecal community time to adapt. This is the case for fresh foods as well; if the rabbits is used to pellets only, too many spring greens at once can make it very sick. (Horses are also hindgut fermenters, and most horse owners can tell you the dangers of spring pasture!)

All the above is true for rabbits of all ages. When kits are newborn, their digestive tracts, like many mammals, are essentially sterile. Their guts are then populated by microorgansisms from their mother and their environment. They start nibbling on poops left by their mother in the nest (which contain microorganisms from her gut), as well as the hay, straw, wood or other bedding in their nest, which also carries microorganisms. When the kits start coming out of the box, they nibble on pretty much everything they encounter. Since they are still subsisting mainly on milk, these tiny bits of new foods and the bacteria on them help prime their little cecums to handle their eventual adult diet. But stopping the milk and throwing them onto adult foods too quickly can do the same thing that a big dietary change does to an adult. They get a bellyache!

So the conclusion is that kits should be able to eat anything their dam has been eating and that they've been exposed to since birth. In fact suddenly removing a source of fiber is more likely to result in sick kits than leaving it. To go back to the beginning, as long as the doe and kits have been eating the cuttings all along, it is actually more likely that a pelleted diet will cause troubles, because high amounts of fiber generally encourage good gut bacteria!

I personally find all this biology fascinating. If you're interested in more detail, here are a couple of pretty good articles:
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/cecal-dysbiosis-in-house-rabbits-what-the-hay/https://oxbowanimalhealth.com/blog/the-inside-scoop-on-rabbit-poops/
 
It's definitely not true that kits can't eat anything but pellets! In fact when confronted with weaning enteritis (the belly ache/bloating sometimes seen in weaning kits), the first thing most experienced breeders will suggest is removing pellets and providing only hay for a time. Sometimes pellets are just too rich for their little guts to process efficiently at first.

Basic rabbit digestive biology goes like this. Rabbits are what are called "hindgut fermenters," meaning they have a blind sac coming off their intestines called a cecum, which does the initial processing of the difficult-to-digest fibrous foods rabbits eat. In the cecum, newly eaten food is deposited and left to ferment; that fermentation releases the nutrients bound up in a herbivorous diet, and it is accomplished by a community of microorganisms that lives in the cecum. After the microorganisms ferment the food, it leaves the cecum and is passed out as "cecotropes" - those are the small, soft poops that look sort of like a cluster of tiny grapes. Usually the rabbit eats these ("coprophagy") and in that way retrieves the nutrients released by fermentation. It's analogous to a cow or goat chewing its cud. In fact if a rabbit is prevented from eating its cecotropes, it becomes malnourished. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but all this taken together suggests that a rabbit is completely dependent on the microorganisms in it cecum to survive.

As stated, the cecum holds a community of microorganisms, which included hundreds of species of anaerobic bacteria as well as low numbers of amoeboids, protozoans and yeasts. In a healthy rabbit there is a balance to the species composition which is maintained by an appropriate high-fiber, low-sugar diet. Certain dietary items feed certain microorganisms, and the rabbit's gut flora changes in response to changes in its diet. So it is that while rabbits can thrive on an incredibly wide variety of foods, quickly changing a rabbit's diet can make it sick when its community of microorganisms tries to adjust to "catch up" to its new diet. It is also why feeding rabbits too many sugary treats (fruit, carrots, etc.) can give it a bellyache: sugars especially feed the yeasts, which can proliferate and cause havoc by overtaking and replacing the more beneficial gut bacteria. Rabbits can handle a little of these, especially if they're allowed to adjust to the presence of these foods; you just have to be vigilant to allow the cecal community time to adapt. This is the case for fresh foods as well; if the rabbits is used to pellets only, too many spring greens at once can make it very sick. (Horses are also hindgut fermenters, and most horse owners can tell you the dangers of spring pasture!)

All the above is true for rabbits of all ages. When kits are newborn, their digestive tracts, like many mammals, are essentially sterile. Their guts are then populated by microorgansisms from their mother and their environment. They start nibbling on poops left by their mother in the nest (which contain microorganisms from her gut), as well as the hay, straw, wood or other bedding in their nest, which also carries microorganisms. When the kits start coming out of the box, they nibble on pretty much everything they encounter. Since they are still subsisting mainly on milk, these tiny bits of new foods and the bacteria on them help prime their little cecums to handle their eventual adult diet. But stopping the milk and throwing them onto adult foods too quickly can do the same thing that a big dietary change does to an adult. They get a bellyache!

So the conclusion is that kits should be able to eat anything their dam has been eating and that they've been exposed to since birth. In fact suddenly removing a source of fiber is more likely to result in sick kits than leaving it. To go back to the beginning, as long as the doe and kits have been eating the cuttings all along, it is actually more likely that a pelleted diet will cause troubles, because high amounts of fiber generally encourage good gut bacteria!

I personally find all this biology fascinating. If you're interested in more detail, here are a couple of pretty good articles:
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/cecal-dysbiosis-in-house-rabbits-what-the-hay/https://oxbowanimalhealth.com/blog/the-inside-scoop-on-rabbit-poops/
Thank you for reminding me of the simple, and perhaps biologically complex, nature of a natural species-appropriate diet. It seemed counterintuitive to feed the dam the great variety of foods I offered her all along and then stop the moment the kits ventured out of the nest. Between written material and video proclamations stating that death to the kit was at the door if I fed fresh foods, I didn't know where to search for sound reasoning. Thank you for bringing reason, logic, and sound science together for me to "nibble" on as I broaden my kits food options!
 
Thank you for reminding me of the simple, and perhaps biologically complex, nature of a natural species-appropriate diet. It seemed counterintuitive to feed the dam the great variety of foods I offered her all along and then stop the moment the kits ventured out of the nest. Between written material and video proclamations stating that death to the kit was at the door if I fed fresh foods, I didn't know where to search for sound reasoning. Thank you for bringing reason, logic, and sound science together for me to "nibble" on as I broaden my kits food options!
 
I would have liked to see those puppies make their first food choice! What a testament to their preference. I see you have a pelletizer. I would love as much information on your experience using it as you care to give. I'm seriously considering purchasing one later this year.
 
I also want to point out that people have posted that you can’t feed rabbits branches from trees whos fruit has pits because they contain cyanide. Complete rubbish the pit contains cyanide not the bark. I feed branches from my apricot and plumb trees. All my rabbits are happy and healthy.
I don't know that it's a good (or bad) idea to feed rabbits apricot pits, but I believe the whole hoopla over apricot pits has more to do with laetril (sp?) possibly treating and/or curing cancer in humans than with cyanide in the pits harming rabbits or any other species.

Some poor mentally handicapped kid ended up in jail for five years b/c he was selling apricot pits that he believed were keeping his own cancer in remission. (This was in the 1970s if I remember correctly).

His mom started smuggling in apricot pits disguised as almonds when he sickened again, and he got better. Whatever anyone thinks of the story or the cure, he certainly believed in it and last I heard was still living and healthy.

Considering his persecution, I'm of the opinion his home remedy may well have worked (at least for him), but idk. At any rate, it's possible the whole cyanide in many fruit pits/seeds story may have been more of a scare tactic than anything else. But even pharma moguls have to make a living...
 
Oh hey, I just noticed the recommendation for BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds). I used to feed a lot of those but they've gotten SO expensive lately (even though they're a significant crop here). They're high in protein, but also in fat, so you do have to exercise a *little* restraint. I'm going to grow a bunch of various sunflowers this year, dry them, and feed through the winter. We have a fenced back yard the deer don't jump, so that's the chosen spot. Texas would be an excellent place to grow sunflowers and prolly Manitoba too, with its long summer days. They're heavy feeders. Good thing we have rabbit poo. 😂

All parts of the sunflower plant are good fodder but the foliage shatters easily when dry, so I'll need to take precautions that it doesn't get wasted. I can't wait till spring!
That's great to know about the fodder! Thanks.
 
That sounds great. I just ordered some organic black oil sunflower seeds for planting off of Etsy. I read somewhere that we should only give a rabbit 6 seeds a day because it is so oily, but that it is great for their coat health. It also said the black oil variety is best for its thin shells and thus easy cracking.
6 seeds a day? That seems very low. I have heard of people offering free choice sunflower. I wonder what that will do?
 

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