Explain something about correctness with pedigrees

[ladysown]

Why...in the dog world, cattle world etc... when a pedigree is written, that changing the name of the animal is not allowed.

But when it comes to a rabbit...changing the name is considered to be just fine? EVEN IF that rabbit already has progeny?

Why is it different?

Do not people realize that it is a legal document?

and please...don't tell me it's unimportant. A legal name is a legal name. Call the rabbit in person whatever you want...but once it has progeny...don't be changing it's legal name. It just isn't right.

To me it has ramifications in that... people don't always look at tats... and NOT every rabbit is tattooed (some like me...only tattoo what they show as they have small herds and no real need to tattoo everything). So if someone wants to outcross their rabbits and they go oh...this rabbit is different than that rabbit...I can breed it...and not realize that perhaps they are breeding sister to brother or father to daughter and not know it.

And yeah...i know...no big deal...just eat the mistakes or cull them out. But it's the principle behind it..it's like you are LYING about who that rabbit is.

so explain why it's okay in the rabbit world to willy nilly (it seems) to change pedigrees on proven animals? NOTE>> PROVEN animals is what I am talking about.

 

[Cattle Cait]

Well, for one the animals aren't usually registered. The majority of pedigreed dogs and cattle are also registered and then it is in fact rude to change the name. If a rabbit is registered, the name stays the same.

A rabbit without its own ear number yet shouldn't have its own name when sold in the first place. Most responsible breeders will sell mature rabbits with an ear #, the only ones I've ever seen sold without one are babies and the majority of breeders don't name the babies when they sell them.

Not to mention if the rabbit has a pedigree, the new owner should be able to see right there whether the rabbits are siblings or not, because the parents would be listed.

People should pay attention to the tattoo. A name is a name, but the ear number is the permenant identitification and, for example, if I sold my rabbit Chex and the new owner renames him Boogie, that's fine because his ear says CM3 and when it comes down to it, he isn't Chex or Boogie or whatever, this rabbit IS CM3.

 

[ladysown]

Most responsible breeders will sell mature rabbits with an ear #,

ah...so I'm considered an irresponsible owner because not only do I name all my mature rabbits... I don't tattoo them all. gee...thanks. I like having names to my animals, and I consider tattooing animals that I don't show overall to be a waste of time and pain for them. But that makes me an irresponsible breeder...hmmm....

So it's Rude to change the name of a registered animal...but not to change the name of a proven unregistered animal. Hmm... I think it's rude regardless. To me once an animal is proven it's name shouldn't change. Like personally...call the animal whatever you want, but it's legal name (pedigree name) should stay unchanged on the pedigree...with or without a tattoo, with or without the registration.

 

[Cattle Cait]

No, okay, I'm sorry. I don't know ANYONE who sells adult rabbits without tattoos, and I mean ANYONE. I feel it's the most permenant and responsible way to identify any certain rabbit. If you've got a barn full of rabbits it's hard to remember the name of each and every one and, without permenant ID, who knows who that rabbit is.

In my opinion a rabbit that is proven should be registered anyways if possible, I try to register each of them that is eligible. Of course, with Harlies, to register my whole herd isn't feasible.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to cause offense. I was simply answering the question.

 

[ladysown]

oh i know you weren't trying to offend...too often people put labels of responsible/irresponsible on people who do things differently. Not saying it's something I shouldn't think about, but most of the time...my breeders when I don't want them anymore...go to pet homes or as lunch for some critter so it's just not a big deal for me. Doesn't mean I'm irresponsible, just means I have a different methodology based on how my sales go. I may consider tattooing anything adult that goes to a breeder home.

I just find it bothersome when people change names and I'm trying to understand why people think it's okay to change the name of proven rabbits. Babies...I don't care. I'll name them something simply so I have a record. You change the name...I'll change it in my records not a big deal at all. But adults...I honestly think a pedigree name should stay as it is.

 

[Cattle Cait]

Can I point out why I tattoo all of my stock, for a personal example?

I don't know where my rabbits will be going after I sell them. Once they are sold, that breeder might then sell that rabbit, a pet owner might give away the rabbit, etc and so forth. If I'm at a pet store and find a decent rabbit with a recognizable tattoo, I can buy that rabbit and track down the breeder to buy the pedigree from them. I've had several people pick up one of my rabbits from a pet store and track me down because they're interested in getting into breeding and showing, 4-H, etc. I've also had 4-H kids who found a free pet rabbit on craigslist, ask me for help, and when they have a tattoo we can find the breeder usually.

I know where I'm selling the rabbit to, but where it goes from there, I don't know. I leave breadcrumbs so if an owner wants to find me for some reason, it's not too hard.

Also, if someone loses their pedigree and there's no ear # on that rabbit, I have no clue which rabbit it is and can't help them. I try to make a point not to name a rabbit unless its a keeper and staying in my barn.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

ladysown- I agree very much with you about changing names on the pedigree. A proven animal SHOULD be seen the same way wherever it shows up on ANY pedigree. And knowing who THAT animals parents are only says "sister' or 'brother' NOT "that specific animal"
Now, if a rabbit is bought, and the 'promised' pedigree never shows up-- that is a totally different scenario.... Change the name, start over!

 

[Cattle Cait]

And knowing who THAT animals parents are only says "sister' or 'brother' NOT "that specific animal"

I didn't say that, I was just pointing out that you would know if you were breeding it to a sibling because their pedigrees would be the same.

 

[ladysown]

thanks for explaining further Caitlin. and sorry that I'm a bit sensitive about the "responsible" breeder part. Too many people have a fixed notion in their head about what makes a responsible breeder...aka...some people think a responsible breeder thoroughly vets every home their rabbit goes to really well and will take back all their animals sold no questions asked. Others think a responsible breeder kills every animal that they won't keep for themselves and thinks that petting out rabbits is irresponsible. and so forth. So I "react" to the responsible breeders do thus and such.

It's good to know the reasoning behind what people do as it helps a body understand why one practices certain behaviours.

I'm just trying to understand the thinking behind people who change names of animals without considering the broader picture.

 

[Shara]

When I first bought rabbits from Paula, she explained to me that it would not be wise to change a proven rabbit's name, but that she didn't see an issue with it prior to the animal being proven. I am of the same mind...

If it has a pedigreed name, and is sold to you as a proven rabbit, it is unethical to change it's name. Period. It disrupts the pedigrees, ect. Give it whatever Call Name you fancy, but keep the legal name legal. And since so few rabbits are actually registared, I think it is not a fair connection to draw. Registaring has nothing to do with whether a rabbit should remain named as on the pedigree or not.

 

[Anntann]

didn't we go through this in another thread? If you don't tattoo an animal that you sell, you can never again PROVE who that animal is. You can't say "oh, that's obviously Mr.Bill that I sold to Caitlin back in 09. " You can say "i think that might be Mr.Bill, but since I've sold 100s of rabbits I can't guarantee it."..see the difference?

About pedigrees: In other animals, a pedigree is it's guarantee of purebred. In rabbits, it's only a "here are the parents". In dogs, for instance, when you get a pedigree, that animal is registrable. The pedigree will contain the registration numbers of all the parents.

I'm not sure who would be changing the name of an animal bred by someone else. It's like going "he who was CrownB's Bosco is now Artificer Bingo"...you can change the call name, of course...but that's part of why people tattoo rabbits...it claims the rabbit as well as IDing it. I guess if it's not tattooed, you can't prove that it IS "crownb's bosco"? I dunno.

I've sold a few of the angoras without tattoos..and I regret it. People have called me and said "i lost the pedigree you sent...is she related to <martha's> buck?" and I go back to my paperwork and see that I sold this person 6 black does...different parents..and no way to tell WHICH doe she's talking about.

I was just given a doe and there is NO WAY to find out who or even WHAT she is. No tattoo. No clue at all. The buck we were given had a tattoo...he'd gone through 3 different people, but using that tattoo I was able to find out his parentage.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

And knowing who THAT animals parents are only says "sister' or 'brother' NOT "that specific animal"

I didn't say that, I was just pointing out that you would know if you were breeding it to a sibling because their pedigrees would be the same.

Not necessarily-- name combined with ear tat is the key on a pedigree. And if people randomly change names- the same issue could be applied to one or both parents of the rabbit.

Even in other species registrations- the pedigree is only as accurate as the breeder wants it to be= I know of too many dog litters where the sire is actually 'unknown'(or even multiple sires to the litter)- but the litter is registered: H as sire, K as dam.
And here is another issue- tats can be reproduced , pedigrees can be falsified-- all too readily. It is our own ethics that come into play here It would be nice if each rabbitry owner could register a 'brand' the way they are with horses and cattle.. and then get a device made that can put that 'brand' in the ear, the way the ARBA has it's little symbol.

 

[DevonW]

There are no breeds of rabbits recognized by the animal pedigree act soooo.... you could say that a rabbit pedigree is technically not a legal document so names can be changed.

As far as I see it a name is a name. The more important information like the breeder's prefix, the tattoo#, weight, and colour remain the same.

Chances are if I buy two rabbits from two different breeders and one's dam is George's Betsy (lilac, b12, 4lbs 2oz,) and the other rabbits dam is George's Dancing Diva (lilac, b12, 4lbs 2oz) and the rest of the pedigree is identical I'm going to say huh the rabbit had a name change with it's new owner.

Take legs for example too they are always changing. One of the rabbits I bought, when I got him his pedigree said his father had 12 legs, so I went to the website of the father's owner (too see how nice he was) and it turned out since my buck was born his father had earned 10 more legs so I updated his pedigree. I've also seen pedigrees with colour changes, someone didn't know that their black was actually a seal, they find out and change the pedigree so all the future generations of the pedigree have this rabbit as a seal, where as all the past generations have this rabbit as a black.

Things do change and as long as the proper prefix remains the same I'm fine with name changes.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

There is a big difference between the term "Pedigree" and "Certificate of Registration". A pedigree refers to the lineage of a given animal, while the registration papers of a dog for instance refer to the fact he is a legal purebred dog. The registration will ALSO INCLUDE the pedigree for future reference when breeding and the subsequent reg. of any future pups. Also in the dog world their registered name is sometimes vastly different from whats on their "papers". In fact a dog's kennel name may change with different owners.. A pedigree in the rabbit world is not a legal document and is strictly for record keeping.Rabbits in shows are known by their tattoo number only, not any given name. Its the breeder's name who is recognized for awards and points not individual rabbits per se.(Thats why its frowned upon to show rabbits that are bred by other breeders and not your own breeding!)

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Lauren
Many people associate 'pedigree' with 'registration'-- What I am saying is this-- The pedigree may not always reflect the true lineage of the rabbit!!! And there are a LOT of pedigreed =, AKC registered Dogs( and CFA registered cats) out there that have registration papers that do not accurately reflect the animals TRUE pedigree(lineage) Registration itself does not guarantee 'purity' of the bloodline. At least with Rabbits, an actual 'expert' must see the animal before it can be registered...that is the ARBA's saving point as far as registering a rabbit is concerned-- at least what is being registered FITS the STANDARD-even if the pedigree shown to the registrar is 'incorrect'=== can't say that about thousands of puppies every year.

 

[ottersatin]

A Pedigreed rabbit is one that was purchased from
a reputable breeder who kept/keeps accurate records of the rabbits in his/her herd.
Anyone can produce a pedigree, the pedigree is only as accurate as the person
who wrote/produced it. A Registered Rabbit is one that through having all of
the proper qualifications and no faults or disqualifications has been looked over by a Registrar
and after examination has received his Registration Certificate.
A registration is NOT a Pedigree, and a Pedigree is NOT a Registration.
They are two different paper records.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[Pickles]

Wow, all this is news to me... wasnt aware you could change the name of the rabbit on the pedigree... doesnt seem right. My bun is HH's Butter Pecan, eventhough I have called him "Pie" from day one and always will. But if he were to be showed, registered, bred, etc... he would always be "Butter Pecan". Seems only appropriate since that is what is on his ped. from his breeder- she bred him, I didnt... Im just his owner.

 

[Jasharia]

I had problems with some breeders down here about there pdigrees. When I showed on breeder a buck I had she was like that tat is wrong, I had that rabbit and that info was wrong. I didn't want part of it and I realy did not want my names on the babies so I sold all the Elops I have that was envoled and started new with a better breeder. To save on time and worry and stress Leave the papers alone and call the bunny what ever you want in the barn but keep the papers just like you got them. Helps keep papers straight on who is who. That is just me though.

 

[Pickles]

Leave the papers alone and call the bunny what ever you want in the barn but keep the papers just like you got them. Helps keep papers straight on who is who.

I agree completely.

 

[ottersatin]

If you are intent on changing the Rabbits name,
get in touch with the breeder and let them know your intentions.
Many times they will work with you and change the name in their files
to coincide with the name you are now using for that rabbit.
Ottersatin. ldtimer: