Exhausting, ideas?

[Buknee]

I have two litters of Rex just born Sunday and Monday this week. I was so excited that I would be able to put together some trios for some, new to rabbit, breeders.
A quick count Sunday of 8 kits. Hershey has them nearly out of my reach.
Monday Henrietta had 6 kits. Yeah, super thrilled. All looked healthy, but small.

By Wednesday, one of Henrietta's kits was nearly dead. It was cold and skinny. I warmed it and it seemed okay. The rest of the litter seemed chilled as well. I brought the box in and took it out later that night for her to feed them. She jumped right in and nursed them. I added some extra foods to the two mamas diet for extra nutrition. Kale, parsley, etc...
Kept Henrietta's kits in overnight to make sure they stayed warm. Took them up for nursing the next morning. Two were not looking so good. Sadly, they died before noon. (two otters)

It appears Henrietta does not have much milk at all. Very frustrating since I just purchased her from a breeder as a proven doe, with successful litters. Paid extra for the Sire service since I want to add otter to my herd.

I pulled my super mom out for the babies to nurse yesterday and again today. Lily has kits that are nearly 5 weeks old. Thankfully she is still nursing them and she lays on my lap while Henrietta's babies nurse. I am really hoping she can help me pull these little kits through, but I am definitely concerned. I will continue to use her to nurse them. I do have the box back in with their mama. So I am hoping with all the extra foods, her milk production will pick up.
4 adorable babies left. Colors I believe are opal, lynx and 2 otters. LOL, but you all know by now I ain't so good with colors.
(Lily) I love this doe! I also used her a week ago for another litter when the mama wasn't doing well. Thank God Petra is doing great now with her 9 kits. (That's another story.)

Now, today. Good news! I finally pulled all of Hershey's kits out. (Hershey is my treasure purchase from MuddyFarms) 1, 2, skip a few, 9, 10, 11! Wow, and all healthy! No wonder she is eating everything I give her. I am so excited and proud of Hershey & Patterson! And the colors are fabulous! I see tort, broken castor?, harlequin, castor, black self, and not sure of the others.
~ Please chime in if you see something different.

I have been giving Henrietta small amounts of: kale, spinach, arugula, parsley, dill, fennel, tomato, cilantro, and wheat fodder. Tonight I put a few drops of Nutri-drops on her fodder. I also give her raspberry, oats, BOSS and manna. What am I missing? Do I just have a dud for a doe? This is in addition to 18% pellets and hay. Water is always available. I have never had this issue in all my litters. It has been very frustrating and exhausting.

I am very grateful for all God has blessed my hubby and I with, but when I lose a bunny, no matter what size, it takes a bit of my wind with it.

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thank you!

Pictures: 1 of Henrietta's 4 kits & 3 of my sweet Hershey's babies. (I named her right!)

 

[Cosima]

it’s never nice to lose kits but for some rabbits there is not much to be done. I had REALLY bad luck on my first litters but on my last 4 litters no kits died and I hope that you get the same luck I did (on my last 4 litters) with Henrietta.

I’m guesses for Henrietta’s kits: one lynx one blue and two black otters. For Hershey’s kits: one tricolor, one harlequin, one black, one probably blue tort, a red, and a castor.

 

[Captaincatholic]

Awwww, so cute. And I get the sadness. My Flemish Giant delivered late and no live babies. I was hoping so much for some purebreds to expand the herd, but...

For Henrietta, how about some Mothers Milk tea in a bowl? Hydration plus fenugreek and the other herbs that make more milk...

Also, I notice that my meat mut does sharing 17 babies eat a ton of rolled oats with their pellets and drink sooo much water and eat many pellets. I bet they eat 1/2 cup of oatmeal each morning and evening, plus more if I go out and check on them through the day. I spronkle a handful on their pellet bowls. They eat everything I give thrn in general. Also, I notice that the typical j feeders do not give as much access to feed as an open bowl, so those with open bowls eat more feed in general. This is even true of the same rabbits I have moved from one pen to another and changed the feeders.

Maybe a bigger water bowl would give more water faster than bottles too, if you are not already doing that.

Good luck woth those beautiful babies!

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have two litters of Rex just born Sunday and Monday this week. I was so excited that I would be able to put together some trios for some, new to rabbit, breeders.
A quick count Sunday of 8 kits. Hershey has them nearly out of my reach.
Monday Henrietta had 6 kits. Yeah, super thrilled. All looked healthy, but small.

By Wednesday, one of Henrietta's kits was nearly dead. It was cold and skinny. I warmed it and it seemed okay. The rest of the litter seemed chilled as well. I brought the box in and took it out later that night for her to feed them. She jumped right in and nursed them. I added some extra foods to the two mamas diet for extra nutrition. Kale, parsley, etc...
Kept Henrietta's kits in overnight to make sure they stayed warm. Took them up for nursing the next morning. Two were not looking so good. Sadly, they died before noon. (two otters)

It appears Henrietta does not have much milk at all. Very frustrating since I just purchased her from a breeder as a proven doe, with successful litters. Paid extra for the Sire service since I want to add otter to my herd.

I pulled my super mom out for the babies to nurse yesterday and again today. Lily has kits that are nearly 5 weeks old. Thankfully she is still nursing them and she lays on my lap while Henrietta's babies nurse. I am really hoping she can help me pull these little kits through, but I am definitely concerned. I will continue to use her to nurse them. I do have the box back in with their mama. So I am hoping with all the extra foods, her milk production will pick up.
4 adorable babies left. Colors I believe are opal, lynx and 2 otters. LOL, but you all know by now I ain't so good with colors.
(Lily) I love this doe! I also used her a week ago for another litter when the mama wasn't doing well. Thank God Petra is doing great now with her 9 kits. (That's another story.)

Now, today. Good news! I finally pulled all of Hershey's kits out. (Hershey is my treasure purchase from MuddyFarms) 1, 2, skip a few, 9, 10, 11! Wow, and all healthy! No wonder she is eating everything I give her. I am so excited and proud of Hershey & Patterson! And the colors are fabulous! I see tort, broken castor?, harlequin, castor, black self, and not sure of the others.
~ Please chime in if you see something different.

I have been giving Henrietta small amounts of: kale, spinach, arugula, parsley, dill, fennel, tomato, cilantro, and wheat fodder. Tonight I put a few drops of Nutri-drops on her fodder. I also give her raspberry, oats, BOSS and manna. What am I missing? Do I just have a dud for a doe? This is in addition to 18% pellets and hay. Water is always available. I have never had this issue in all my litters. It has been very frustrating and exhausting.

I am very grateful for all God has blessed my hubby and I with, but when I lose a bunny, no matter what size, it takes a bit of my wind with it.

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thank you!

Pictures: 1 of Henrietta's 4 kits & 3 of my sweet Hershey's babies. (I named her right!)

Options I would consider:
1. Since she is feeding them something, my first inclination would be to keep supplementing the kits and let her keep trying. It's only been four days, so her milk may still ramp up. Keep the extra fats (BOSS, Calf Manna, whole oats) coming, which will give her body what she needs to make that rich milk.
You could continue using Lily since she seems willing, or supplement with goat milk/puppy Esbilac/kitten milk replacer if Lily loses interest.
In fact, if Lily is willing to feed them on her own, you might even think about weaning Lily's 5-week-olds and just give the little kits to her. That would put Lily out of production for another 4-6 weeks, and IMO it would be best to get Henrietta up and running, but if that's not happening it is an option.

2. My second thought is that you might add the four kits to Hershey's litter, split them into two boxes, then bring Hershey one box in the morning and one in the evening. Make sure to divide the nesting material into the two boxes in case the doe suspects something is up (they usually don't, but you never know). I've had a doe raise 15 out of 16 kits by doing it this way. If Hershey is not a doe that normally nurses twice a day, you may have to "convince" her to get into the box twice a day by pushing her into the box the second time (whether that's morning or evening). Since Hershey's milk will need a day or two to catch up to the increased demand, you might still supplement the little ones for a few days if they don't blow up nicely with milk right away. It's high-maintenance for both you and the doe, but it can work.

So, some thoughts about the doe's poor performance. I would hesitate to suspect the seller of selling you a dud. Sometimes rabbits do well at one place, and not at the other, or vice versa. One of my most successful Satin does, Moon, came from a friend who knows what she's doing but who could not get her to have a successful litter. I took Moon home because she was drop-dead gorgeous and bred her to my best buck that day, and so glad I did...she kindled 31 days later and eventually became the mother, grandmother and great-grandmother of numerous Grand Champions.

Here are Moon's latest great-grandbabies. Not really entirely on topic but we all like to look at pictures of rabbits... So shiny!


Since you bought Henrietta bred, I'm guessing that you have not had her for long. Are you feeding her different foods than what she was eating before you got her? Rabbits generally don't like any change, at all, and while juniors are reasonably flexible, I've found that the older a rabbit gets, the more it is affected by changes. If Henrietta is on a new feed, her body could have been struggling to re-establish its balance on the new diet (along with all the other changes she's been adapting to). This could have compromised her gestation, resulting in small, weak kits and poor milk production by the doe. I tell people buying bred does to keep them on exactly the same ration they were on at the old barn; switching them over to your own feed can wait till the kits are born and developing well.

Even if it's not the feed and she's eating exactly what she ate at her old home, just the stress of the move could have impacted her negatively. Some pregnant does do great with a move, others have a harder time. If it was me I would definitely not give up on her yet. She's fertile and kindles well and at least tries to feed the kits. Her next litter might be wonderful!

 

[Buknee]

Well, two more dead this morning. The final two looked fed and warm. An hour later I checked and they were getting cold. I pulled them, warmed them, pulled Lily to feed, (only one nursed) and now they are with Hershey's litter.
My plan is to pull them out to nurse Lily and then put them back with Hershey for warmth. I have given up on Henrietta this round. I won't breed her again until the weather gets warmer and I can breed another doe or two at the same time. My issue is, the two I just bred last week are the ones that have the small litters. All the rest are large litters or new mamas. So I might be waiting until May to breed her back. I don't know. Just so frustrated right now.

~~Thank you for all the suggestions Alaska Satin. I thought about giving them to Lily, but now that there are only two I need to keep them with Hershey for warmth. It was 16* this morning so probably mid 20s in the rabbitry. Hershey pulled a mass of fur.
I do have goats in milk and also kitten milk replacer on hand. I just hear too many stories of people drowning their kits when so young.
What is the maximum oats/BOSS/manna that you would feed a doe? I need to up Hershey's since she looks skinny and needs all the nourishment she can get.

For Henrietta, maybe the food and location change is the factor. She is so sweet, I want her to succeed. I had transition pellets, but that might not have been enough.
I have never purchased a bred doe before. I have sold three that were bred and they were all successful.

Congrats on your success with Moon! Beautiful rabbits. ~~

 

[Buknee]

Awwww, so cute. And I get the sadness. My Flemish Giant delivered late and no live babies. I was hoping so much for some purebreds to expand the herd, but...

For Henrietta, how about some Mothers Milk tea in a bowl? Hydration plus fenugreek and the other herbs that make more milk...

Also, I notice that my meat mut does sharing 17 babies eat a ton of rolled oats with their pellets and drink sooo much water and eat many pellets. I bet they eat 1/2 cup of oatmeal each morning and evening, plus more if I go out and check on them through the day. I spronkle a handful on their pellet bowls. They eat everything I give thrn in general. Also, I notice that the typical j feeders do not give as much access to feed as an open bowl, so those with open bowls eat more feed in general. This is even true of the same rabbits I have moved from one pen to another and changed the feeders.

Maybe a bigger water bowl would give more water faster than bottles too, if you are not already doing that.

Good luck woth those beautiful babies!

Thanks, I will get some and have on hand for the next time. I live in a small town and so I have to preplan for catastrophes. LOL

I have large feeders in all my mama's cages. Also, the water bottles are 64 ounce size. Henrietta has been eating and drinking plenty. I will start feeding more oat/BOSS/manna to Hershey.

Sorry to hear about your FG. Petra is FG, as is Pearl and Pierre. I currently have a FG/Rex litter from Petra. The other two are still too young. But come March Pierre has a job to do. Hopefully we will have two litters of FG mid April. Petra is black, P&P are light gray.

 

[Buknee]

it’s never nice to lose kits but for some rabbits there is not much to be done. I had REALLY bad luck on my first litters but on my last 4 litters no kits died and I hope that you get the same luck I did (on my last 4 litters) with Henrietta.

I’m guesses for Henrietta’s kits: one lynx one blue and two black otters. For Hershey’s kits: one tricolor, one harlequin, one black, one probably blue tort, a red, and a castor.

Thanks Cosima.
I hope next try is successful. At this point, I will be happy to have one survivor from Henrietta's litter.
I only have one otter and the blue/opal left.

 

[Robochelle]

Get some nettle for milk production, I swear by it. Also, if they're dying from cold, get one of those heating pads for pets, and put it under half the nesting box. I'd suggest comparing her nesting material to others, it could be she's not pulling enough fur, or that it's distributed badly... save the clean nesting material from the successful litter and keep it as a blanket for any future cold litters.

If there's only one left, and it's similar in size to the other litter, you should see if the other mother will accept it.

 

[Buknee]

Thank you everyone. The last two kits died this morning. Makes sense. They never got colostrum since Henrietta's milk never came in.

 

[Sapphire16]

I'm so sorry your whole litter died, it is heartbreaking to try everything and still lose them. They were beautiful. We have a Tumuk that has between 13 and 15 each time and her milk doesn't come in till the 3rd or 4th day so we have had to supplement the ones that live until she gets her milk in fully. We were going to cull her but every litter she is improving and this litter she is partly bald pulling hair to keep them warm and sitting in their nest box for a long long time trying to feed them. Hopefully she will be a great mom the next time around.
Her sister had 8 and she had 15 the last go round, something scared her sister and she broke her back so we supplemented until Sugar's milk came in then switched half out at a time and supplemented the other half then rotated.
We lost 8 of hers the last time but saved 7 and 6 of her sisters by supplementing. The kits did fine, took a little longer to get to desired weight. You can buy the little syringes and pink long snout nipples and powdered colostrum from Amazon to mix with goats milk and kitten milk replacer. We got advise from a long time breeder and at 3 weeks when they started eating hay we added rolled oats to their regimen. I think the colostrum is essential for survival and it is good to give when supplementing in their milk up to 3 weeks of age to give them a healthy start. At 3 weeks some people put the milk mixture in low saucers and make it available to the kits. She said the ones that seem to need it the most and even the mom licks it up. We keep a supply on hand now of the powdered ingredients but you having fresh goats milk is a real plus.

 

[Captaincatholic]

Thank you everyone. The last two kits died this morning. Makes sense. They never got colostrum since Henrietta's milk never came in.

Hugs, and I hope your Henrietta and my Silvia have terrific litters next time!

 

[Buknee]

I'm so sorry your whole litter died, it is heartbreaking to try everything and still lose them. They were beautiful.

Thank you. I was so excited with their colors. I was looking forward to adding an otter to my herd.

but saved 7 and 6 of her sisters by supplementing.

I am glad you had success with some. It's a lot of work, but survival is worth it.

You can buy the little syringes and pink long snout nipples and powdered colostrum

I have some little bottles and nipples, but they are huge for kits. I do need to get a supply of just in case items including the powdered colostrum.
I was definitely not prepared. I have had so many litters without issue. I was caught off guard with this one. And since Hershey had such a large litter, I had no foster back up.

I think the colostrum is essential for survival

I had not even thought about the lack of colostrum until it was too late. But, being remote, I don't know that I could have gotten any in time anyway.

Thanks for your input and kind words.

 

[Buknee]

Hugs, and I hope your Henrietta and my Silvia have terrific litters next time!

Thank you. I will be waiting until the weather warms up some. Henrietta did a lousy job at building her nest. I had to add to it.
I also plan to breed two others at the same time. Hopefully one of them will have room for fostering should the need arise.
Hershey only kindled 6 for her first litter. I never dreamed she would kindle 11 on the second one. Thank God they are all doing good!

Best of luck with Silvia!

 

[MuddyFarms]

Hey, Buknee! So sorry to hear about Henrietta’s litter!! That’s a disappointment to have happened, for sure. Do you know her age? Hopefully she will improve for her next litter…

Glad Hershey had a nice litter and is taking good care of them. Her mom is our favorite doe, and she had 8 or 9 (I think) in her first litter and 13 on her second! Sounds like Hershey is following her in litter numbers.

I would definitely feed Hershey lots of BOSS and oats, especially once the kits hit 10 days old (but even now since she has so many kits). One thing with our Rex line that we have noticed is the does will give everything they eat to their kits. If we notice a doe losing condition on a litter, we increase her oats and BOSS to help prevent more loss of condition, but we don’t expect to see her gain condition. It all goes straight to milk for the kits. Once she is off the litter, then we reduce the oats and BOSS and let her have some time off on regular feed to gain the condition back.

It’s a nuance of this line that took some time to figure out (and help from some helpful RT members!).

 

[MuddyFarms]

Options I would consider:
1. Since she is feeding them something, my first inclination would be to keep supplementing the kits and let her keep trying. It's only been four days, so her milk may still ramp up. Keep the extra fats (BOSS, Calf Manna, whole oats) coming, which will give her body what she needs to make that rich milk.
You could continue using Lily since she seems willing, or supplement with goat milk/puppy Esbilac/kitten milk replacer if Lily loses interest.
In fact, if Lily is willing to feed them on her own, you might even think about weaning Lily's 5-week-olds and just give the little kits to her. That would put Lily out of production for another 4-6 weeks, and IMO it would be best to get Henrietta up and running, but if that's not happening it is an option.

2. My second thought is that you might add the four kits to Hershey's litter, split them into two boxes, then bring Hershey one box in the morning and one in the evening. Make sure to divide the nesting material into the two boxes in case the doe suspects something is up (they usually don't, but you never know). I've had a doe raise 15 out of 16 kits by doing it this way. If Hershey is not a doe that normally nurses twice a day, you may have to "convince" her to get into the box twice a day by pushing her into the box the second time (whether that's morning or evening). Since Hershey's milk will need a day or two to catch up to the increased demand, you might still supplement the little ones for a few days if they don't blow up nicely with milk right away. It's high-maintenance for both you and the doe, but it can work.

So, some thoughts about the doe's poor performance. I would hesitate to suspect the seller of selling you a dud. Sometimes rabbits do well at one place, and not at the other, or vice versa. One of my most successful Satin does, Moon, came from a friend who knows what she's doing but who could not get her to have a successful litter. I took Moon home because she was drop-dead gorgeous and bred her to my best buck that day, and so glad I did...she kindled 31 days later and eventually became the mother, grandmother and great-grandmother of numerous Grand Champions.

Here are Moon's latest great-grandbabies. Not really entirely on topic but we all like to look at pictures of rabbits... So shiny!
View attachment 33856

Since you bought Henrietta bred, I'm guessing that you have not had her for long. Are you feeding her different foods than what she was eating before you got her? Rabbits generally don't like any change, at all, and while juniors are reasonably flexible, I've found that the older a rabbit gets, the more it is affected by changes. If Henrietta is on a new feed, her body could have been struggling to re-establish its balance on the new diet (along with all the other changes she's been adapting to). This could have compromised her gestation, resulting in small, weak kits and poor milk production by the doe. I tell people buying bred does to keep them on exactly the same ration they were on at the old barn; switching them over to your own feed can wait till the kits are born and developing well.

Even if it's not the feed and she's eating exactly what she ate at her old home, just the stress of the move could have impacted her negatively. Some pregnant does do great with a move, others have a harder time. If it was me I would definitely not give up on her yet. She's fertile and kindles well and at least tries to feed the kits. Her next litter might be wonderful!

Have any of your Satin stock made it down to the lower 48?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Have any of your Satin stock made it down to the lower 48?

I sent a black buck, Nova, down to Reno for the ARBA National Convention last fall, but he's the only one that has left the state. (He got a 1st place, but there were only two in his class, so although it was satisfying, it wasn't as amazing as it could have been. )

 

[Buknee]

So sorry to hear about Henrietta’s litter!!

Thank you. They were so cute! I really wanted the otter.

Do you know her age?

She will be two in April. According to previous owner, she has had at least two successful litters.

Her mom is our favorite doe

Hershey is definitely earning a favorite position. I have a lot of great rabbits so the competition is tough.

I would definitely feed Hershey lots of BOSS and oats

I have increased her food intake considerably. She is definitely putting everything into producing. She gets a salad morning and night and oats/BOSS/Manna three times a day. Plus unlimited pellets and hay.

Thank you so much for all of your input. I really appreciate it.

 

[Scooter1A]

I'm curious why people feed oatmeal instead of whole oats. I feed whole oats, not many just a few with their pellets, in the winter. My doe is 3 days pregnant and she is already eating much more. I let her out every day for exercise until she gets closer to her date.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I'm curious why people feed oatmeal instead of whole oats. I feed whole oats, not many just a few with their pellets, in the winter. My doe is 3 days pregnant and she is already eating much more. I let her out every day for exercise until she gets closer to her date.

I feed oatmeal because I have it. I'd actually prefer whole oats, but I don't feed them very often (all my rabbits gain weight very quickly and easily, may be to a fault!), so I just use what I have on hand when I need it.

 

[Buknee]

I'm curious why people feed oatmeal instead of whole oats. I feed whole oats, not many just a few with their pellets, in the winter. My doe is 3 days pregnant and she is already eating much more. I let her out every day for exercise until she gets closer to her date.

I feed both. I mix my oats and BOSS together and just feed the mix. I keep the Manna separate since I only feed it to ready to kindle or nursing does.