Etiquette for a dead rabbit

[BlackBunny]

I'm a small time breeder with a queston about "what do you do when you sell a healthy bunny and the new owner calls back in 3 weeks to say that the rabbit got sick and died".
I ask as I do not sell many rabbits, the buyer is my one rabbit breeder/show connection with years of experience in my chosen breed and I value this contact. Although she did not say that I sold her a sick rabbit she thinks that the rabbit must have had something in his system before the sale and the stress brought it out.
Yet my rabbits are not sick, she did not attempt a vet visit in the 5 days that the rabbit continued to get worse untile the morning he died, at which point she called to ask how my rabbits were because the bunny I sold her got sick and died.
She had the rabbit for almost 3 weeks, could a cold incubate for that long or is it possible that the bunny got sick in her rabbitry?
I just feel so bad, he was such a beautiful rabbit, I sold him a little after 9 weeks and as far as I knew he was healthy.

Now I will make you all cry with photo's
Speckles you were a good bunny I'm sorry

 

[MaggieJ]

Well, for starters, he was sick for several days before he died. Sick how? She should be able to describe his symptoms. My guess, given his age, is that it was something in the GI tract. Did she feed him the same way you did?

I really think that she should give you the details of his illness and his care. You could replace the rabbit, but if it is a feeding issue, the same thing may happen again. I seem to remember that Ladysown offers a three-day health guarantee... and that seems reasonable to me. Even a week... but three weeks is a long time to guarantee the health of an animal when you have no control over its care. I appreciate that she is very experienced while you are fairly new to rabbits, but all the more reason why she should be able to give an account of the rabbit's illness and how she treated it.

BTW, rabbits do not get "colds". They can have respiratory illnesses, including pneumonia, but there should have been symptoms if that is the case.

 

[ladysown]

three days normally. One week tops. UNLESS you have been informed during that time period that it was sick and advice was sought.

Most I offer is a replacement rabbit.

AND if she didn't do anything to help it, no deal.

NOW>>> It's different if the rabbit ends up having seizures or has something Odd... aka.. a heart murmur or something that is a genetic issue. But a rabbit getting sick and dying three weeks after sale.... not something I would worry on too much.

The rabbit could have picked up something in her rabbitry easily enough as well.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

ow was the rabbit you sold weaned? Did you include some of it's normal food when it left your property? Is this a rabbit from your first few litters?
Most diseases take about two weeks to incubate. Did the buyer put the rabbit in quarantine for a month? remember, quarantine works in TWO directions!!! was the death a sudden one,as in GI Stasis, or a lingering downward spiral? These are all questions that need to be answered... At rhree weeks post sale, the rabbit could very well have been exposed to something not from your place, ....

 

[ladysown]

Okay in case you want to know why i offer three days

1. most of my bunnies go into pet homes
2. Three days is sufficient time to show if something from my herd.
3. it takes four days for something to show up from the herd that they move to. (so I've been told by a fair number of people).
4. I don't feel comfortable not giving any guarantee as many people are apt to do.
5. I do ask questions when folks call. What were you doing? What sort of treats? Why type of exercise? Did it show any symptoms of anything? Was it eating or drinking? Was it pooping or peeing? Did any of the output change in colour, size or amount?
In six years I've lost THREE kits and ONE adult. That's selling kits from 5 weeks old and up.
The adult.. NO CLUE what happened. She looked and acted healthy before being sold. My guess it was age and stress. The two youngsters were totally unexplained deaths. Kits that were fine and then died. One was let out by the children and found hopping in the garden unaccompanied. NOT within my guarantee so I said So sad, so sorry, can't help. And that was when I offered a one week guarantee...all had issues within the first three days. and since that was my experience, that's what I switched to.

 

[akane]

If it died suddenly of something that seems like it would be genetic like heart problems or stroke, if my rabbits started to show illness, or if it became ill within the first week at least probably the first 4-5days of me selling it then I would replace. A 3 week rabbit with no sign in your own herd means it didn't come from you. Even if the illness could sit around for 3 weeks your rabbits would be showing signs too and probably would have well before that one. He also didn't die suddenly. He caught something even if it was a GI imbalance from change in feed and then died. This is a fault of the buyer no matter how experienced they are and may even more so be their fault due to lack of care for the sick rabbit. They managed to spread something from a show or other rabbitry your rabbits aren't immune to or did not consider differences in feeding and convert properly. There are good odds if you gave her another rabbit the same thing would happen given what little information we have so far and at minimum I would not give another rabbit to someone who couldn't detail to me what they did for the sick animal even if it was home treatment instead of a vet. I wouldn't leave a sick rabbit sitting around for 5 days without doing something even if that was a bullet because I recognized I couldn't do anything. Then I'd have necropsy info for you.

 

[BlackBunny]

Thank you so much for your comments, here are a few more details.
She told me the rabbit had a cold and had the sniffles, so I'm thinking a respiratory infection or pneumonia? She said he was sneezing and had a mucus discharge for about 4-5 days that she attempted to treat herself, not sure how, but the rabbit did not see a vet and was kept outside.
The rabbit was not quarantined, her heated rabbit shed is 8x6 and she has more then a dozen in there.
I've had a dozen or so litters, never had a sick bunny yet so it bothers me, as well as the fact that I really wanted to keep that rabbit but it was between him and his brother and I decided on the brother, who is healthy and fine.
The rabbit was 9 weeks, weaned and healthy and I always give two weeks or more worth of food to the new owner for the change over.
The payment was an exchange of rabbits and she is not looking for a refund, my worry is that she has dibs on another bunny of mine that is coming up on 7 weeks and she wants to take him home asap.
I just don't want it to happen again, and if it's her rabbits and not mine what can I do about it?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

First of all, as Maggie said, rabbits DO NOT get colds. Sounds to me like he developed pasteurella (aka "snuffles") or some other upper respiratory infection. If none of your rabbits are sick and she did not quarantine the rabbit but put him straight into her shed, I would be willing to bet that he caught it from HER rabbits. They are likely resistant to it, but yours are not. I would NOT sell her another rabbit and I would NOT take any more from her. What did you do with the one you got in exchange?

 

[BlackBunny]

@ Onearcefarm, I have the bunny quarantined away from the other bunnies, I alway quarantine new animals, whatever they are, for 1 month just because.
The idea that the illness is in her herd and they do not show signs for it makes me feel better, it was a baby rabbit and I know she put the new rabbit right in with her bunnies.
I will have to have a talk with her about the rabbit she's expecting, I found it a little strange that she had a rabbit from me die and she wants another one right away, myself I'd want to give it some time.

 

[ladysown]

please do not GIVE her another rabbit. If she wishes to PURCHASE one tell her she can purchase one but it won't be an exchange (only if you feel comfortable with that). Do advise her that isolation is a really good policy and that when switching rabbits from one feed to another, having a stabilizer such as hay available at all times is a really good idea.

 

[BlackBunny]

Thank you again for the feedback on my issue, it was new and I really didn't know how to deal with it other then to make her happy although I think I was more broken up about the death.
I posted one of the last pic's I took of speckles before I took him to his new home, he was a cute bunny, his brother is a good bunny too, he's gotten extra cuddles since that phone call.
Its just sad, my husband made the call to sell that rabbit, I really didn't want to but I didn't need to keep both and my love wanted the brother, on the left.

 

[akane]

Most breeders don't get their rabbits treated by vets for these things. Most don't even treat respiratory infections. If you treat the infection and save the rabbit then breed it you just created a litter of rabbits who can get that infection and you made the infection more resistant to meds. Eventually this leads to a barn that has constant antibiotics in one rabbit or another. pasteurella is everywhere and even if you culture a healthy rabbit you often find it. They are just immune because the sick ones have been culled out. The only way we will keep healthy rabbits and safe shows is to breed healthy rabbits and cull the ones who can get sick.

Instead of treatment you should quarantine immediately, some put them down asap but a respiratory infection is not always deadly pasteurella so I like to give them a chance, and see if the rabbit recovers despite the fact the wrong infection could wipe out your whole rabbitry. Rabbits that recover I send to pet homes. Rabbits that don't recover, don't. If they are only getting sicker over days I would put a bullet in them but it hasn't happened yet. I think mine got bordetella instead, breeders have a tendency to just call all respiratory infections snuffles even though there are a dozen or so different ones, and they only got sick because it was a few young juniors so immature immune systems I put out in to colder weather just as I introduced a doe from a rabbitry known to have a "snuffles" outbreak in the past. None of my adults showed symptoms and I haven't seen it again. It's probably now in my rabbitry and kits are being born with immunity to it from the adults. Stress like with my juniors and the sudden cold plus new location can bring on a respiratory illness that either rabbitry is suppressing normally and the rabbit might recover just fine once the stress is relieved. However breeding such a rabbit might breed sensitive rabbits in to the herd like I mentioned before which is why all of mine went to pet homes and I kept from the next litter instead. Each rabbitry can also develop it's own resistance and strains that another rabbitry has not been exposed to and immune to.

I would try to make some of this info about different groups of rabbits suppressing different illnesses clear to her and that it could happen again. If you do want to sell her a rabbit and she wants to buy one after that I would make it an adult with a fully developed immune system and not a junior. I would probably try for a different line of breeding as well if possible in the hope there is different immunity present.

 

[Miss M]

How much you value this contact would also play a part in your decision.

I'd personally value it a bit less, knowing:

1. She blames it on you, when the rabbit was fine for two weeks after leaving you. Could it have been a latent issue? Sure, but if she is so experienced, she should know that it didn't necessarily come with the bun. But that's what QUARANTINE is for. Stuff like this happens.

2. She didn't contact you when the rabbit first got sick, and not until it died.

3. She didn't quarantine the rabbit.

Not that you can't interact with her, but I don't know about sending bunnies back and forth. The bun you have that came from her may very well be carrying pasturella or whatever the other bun died of. Like Akane said, she may have something in her herd that her buns are immune to, but yours aren't, and vice versa. We do tend to end up with herds that are suited to their unique surroundings, and sometimes those peculiarities aren't compatible.

 

[sommrluv]

How much would living conditions come into play? For instance if the new owner's place was dusty, or damp, or moldy...etc. If a rabbit is raised in the opposite of that environment and switched could an infection develop? And it wouldn't occur in her herd if they were born into the conditions?

 

[akane]

Dust would probably not be a problem although I have known small animals with allergies and asthma but they are rare and even rarer amongst the breeders and show crowd instead of pet crowd who throws 2 rabbits together for the fun of it or accident. Dampness is so so. Any outdoor rabbit ls likely to experience plenty of rain storms, wild rabbits would see constant damp earth and dew covered grass, so I would think they'd be fairly hardy to that so long as the rabbit isn't wet. Now mold is another matter and can cause illness. It will cause illness in the humans as well. Usually it takes extreme mold or certain mold to cause an actual respiratory infection that kills rather than irritation like asthma or allergies that just make mild symptoms infinitely and the animal lives fine. Saddle mold about puts me on the ground if I disturb it wrong but 10mins later I can be wiping it off just fine so long as I'm not breathing it.

I would question more the rabbitries who experience limited clean out and build up a lot of moldy rabbit poop than general mold and dust. I've been in some that the stuff was 6-12" deep and squished as you walked with white mold covering the top. It's not in the cages but I question what's bouncing around that rabbitry versus a swept or shoveled floor where waste is removed weekly or monthly. Even every 4-6months in the colony it doesn't build up that bad so I highly question that person saying they clean out yearly. That was a lot of rabbit poop. That extreme could do something I would bet.

 

[sommrluv]

I get mold if I leave it longer than four days in trays. It's been VERY damp here however. And my buns are inside.

I have a mold allergy as well.

 

[curlysue]

Its ridiculous that she didnt quaranteen,i think its absurd for her too expect another rabbit after three weeks.I garauntee my rabbits for 7 days.i feel anything they might have here would show up by then.in twenty some years i replaced two rabbits.nobody wanted there money back.one rabbit was out of the cage outside and they didnt really know what happpened.one bunny had maloclusion and i gave him another rabbit.I have never seen that color of dwarfs are you ever showing in the US.

 

[Secuono]

That bunny was adorable!
I would not give away a rabbit to her, make her buy another or take a hike.
It's her fault, not yours. She did not let you know what was going on, she did not care or tend to the rabbit for days, she just watched it die.
Frankly she shouldn't own animals if she just watches them get sick, does nothing, watches them die for no reason but her own fault and then goes back and blames the breeder.

 

[MaggieJ]

I wouldn't give her another rabbit if it were me... but I would consider returning the one you got from her. I'm not sure I'd want it in my rabbitry and it is a way of making things even. She's no worse off than before the trade.

In my opinion she should have contacted you immediately when the rabbit showed signs of illness - not to complain, but to try to troubleshoot the problem. Instead she let the rabbit sit there for five days with no treatment or even quarantine.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

MaggieJ's idea sounds very good-- besides, do you want such a person as your 'mentor' in the the rabbit world? break free now, and avoid any further damages to a reputation that you have not even had the chance to build up...say nothing negative about her-- if anyone asks, just tell them they do not know the whole story---and leave it at that---