Ethics of meat rabbit breeding...

[SaratogaNZW]

Carried over from HT (sorry if you read both), where someone had asked "What I'm doing right?" I started thinking about it, then the bug bit me again, that has been hanging out in the back of my mind:
How happy and healthy can a 14 pound NZW doe be?
What indications would I have that they are TOO big, are going to be unhealthy, or miserable because their tiny little bones ache all day?

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<hijack>
What did I Do right? Im a big believer in starting with quality stock, and you get what you pay for.
I started my NZW line with 4 does and 2 bucks, handpicked from good quality commercial stock, that I paid $40 each for.
I have been breeding them for 3 years now, year round, keeping the best of the best and culling/eating or selling the rest. Now mind you the rest are not little runty mangy things, a few of my "culls" have taken BOB when shown by other people. I am breeding for the commercial traits I paid for: good mothering instincts, large litters, fast growout, excellent meat to bone ratio.
Now that I'm writing a small novel for this simple post, I'm going to start another thread with the ethics of it!
</hijack>

Now...
Check out Zack Here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1975930/Zach.htm
and go back to find Ivory Here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1975930/Ivory-TD6.htm
Ivory, One of my starter does was over 14 pounds, and the buck was 9.5. Historically, That line produces one or two "monsters" per litter, almost always does, I have only ever got 2 monster bucks, of which I still have both.
"Trace" my star buck, came from the original monster (Ivory), as did "Miranda" but much later and from a different father. Now, I have "Zach" who is a product of trace and miranda, and is the first to hit fryer weight in his 8th week. He hit 20 weeks last week, so if I wanted to linebreed for these monsters, I am set.

However, I do have an ethical bug bothering me. I always want my buns to be the happiest and healthiest they can possibly be, and I dont know if these monster does, that are even to large for breed standards, are happy. There is a tipping point of how big they should get I think, due to meat to bone ratio and how much rabbit you can actually pack on that skeleton.

I do weekly physicals on my working stock, I would think if they were too heavy for their frame they would be slow, sluggish, and have sore feet or raw hocks. I have since sold all of them as working stock except for Miranda, Trace and Zack now, so I really dont know what their breeding lifetime and health is like as they get older. I should contact those folks and ask!

So again, long story short:
What indications would I have that they are TOO big, are going to be unhealthy, or miserable because their tiny little bones ache all day?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I would think you would notice them being very lethargic, especially your buck. And, like you said, having problems with sore hocks and poor muscle tone.

 

[ottersatin]

What indications would I have that they are TOO big,
are going to be unhealthy, or miserable because
their tiny little bones ache all day?

That is hard to say unless you can get into the Rabbits mind.
I would think that once the Rabbit became too terribly overweight/large
he/she might have trouble maneuvering. If your charges seem to have
trouble getting around and doing their simple normal everyday tasks
like eating, drinking and relieving themselves it would be time to rethink
the goals of your breeding program.If the rabbits are showing
no ill effects at all I believe it would be a fair guess to believe that
all is well and let your breeding program stand.
It may take more than just a few months to see enough to
know what the next step to take is.
Congrats on your achievement.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[eco2pia]

If they willingly hop and breed, and don't sit in a corner grinding their teeth all day, I think it is fair to say they are healthy and happy. I have a background in horses, where you see a lot of conformational issues resulting in lameness. An animal in pain is unmistakably miserable. Reluctance to move, stiff movement, favoring one or another joint, are all things to watch for. The onset of grouchiness when being handled with advancing age, too.

I think it is admirable for you to be concerned about this, but I also think anyone who is concerned would likely have noticed signs of pain by now. If you watch your stock and they are active and bright and interested in their surroundings, you can be assured they are fairly healthy IMHO.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

There are breeds of rabbits that are a lot larger than NZW, that don't have any problems and they are not that significantly larger in bone either. So the only issue I would have is breeding to breed STANDARD. Once they don't fit the standard I would not consider them to be good NZW's. So the issue now becomes whether you just want to breed for good meat production and forget the standard or stay within the standard in order to sell good breeding/show stock.One or two outsized kits in a litter is one thing you can cull them, but if you just choose the biggest then they will all eventually be that size which is a DQ on the show table. No reason a good production rabbit can't also be a good show rabbit..it then gives you two avenues of "income' from them instead of just the meat angle.

 

[Tom E]

These are good and real concerns, but I'm inclined to agree with the others.

If you ever want to see what "Too big for your bones" looks like, go on down to your local feed store and ask to see the cornish cross chickens near 8 weeks (or so) old. That's a sorry sight. Flopped down in one spot (near the feeder) and can't stand for long, because the growth of muscle is faster than the rest of the body can handle. They don't just move little (cause lots of birds can be lazy in the shade) but when they do move it just doesn't look right. I understand why people raise them- because people don't want to pay more than a certain amount for chicken, but I couldn't do it.

If your rabbits are moving ok- when they move- and seem normal in other ways, I'm sure they are fine. And for what it's worth, I've never heard of a breed of rabbit with the same sort of problems as a cornish cross chicken. Even the giants don't seem to have such problems.

 

[SaratogaNZW]

Ok. Thanks All.
My biggest concern being they are from good commercial stock and there really is a difference between good commercial stock and some of the other stuff that passes for a NZW around here.
They are defiantly still able to move, and rather well =)
they still get very frisky and hoppy at sun-up, especially on warmer days. It IS kinda funny to see that 14 pound doe jumping OVER her kits and racing around the playpen in a circle.

 

[PulpFaction]

Yeah, rabbits are different from other meat animals, IMO, because they just simply aren't expected to move much. But I've seen even 14lb NZW meaties living as house pets perfectly capable of running, jumping and moving about the same as my little Thriantas. I think rabbits carry their muscle on their frame much better than other species, provided they aren't allowed to get fat.

 

[akane]

We have a 15lb champagne buck as a colony rabbit. He loves to dig and create huge craters in the bedding. He's a lot more active than the 12lb does. Especially with the heat lately.